At the league meeting last night the following clubs were represented:
Arnold Civil Defence
Cotgrave Welfare
City Hospital Lesiure Centre
Oakleigh Lodge Social Club
Pegasus Snooker Club
Stadium Leisure
Wollaton RBL
The following clubs were absent:
BCI Snooker Centre
Beeston Snooker Hall
Lenton Liberal Club
Mapperley Community Centre
Nottingham University
Phoenix Cue Sports
I presented the survey results to those present as follows:
Will you vote in favour of changing the format next season to 3 man teams (2 frames each) if we call an EGM?
YES
Arnold x1
BCI x1
Beeston x1
Mapperley x2
Nottm Uni x1
Pegasus x2
Phoenix x2
Stadium x2
NO
Arnold x1
BCI x1
Beeston x1
City Hospital x2
Cotgrave x2
Lenton x2
Nottm Uni x1
Oakleigh x2
Wollaton x2
TOTAL YES = 12
TOTAL NO = 14
As the result was so evenly split we did not bother asking the 6 committee members for their views but it is likely that me, Mike and Pete would vote YES and Dennis, Dave and Don would vote NO, a 15 / 17 split.
As a result of this survey we will not be trying to force the change on anyone who does not want it.
I asked the meeting to consider the following:
I propose that our next league meeting is an EGM at which we vote to accept the following rule change:
"A new set of 3 Man Team rules will be written for the 2010/11 season. The new set of rules will be drawn up by the League Secretary and may be amended at any time without the need for a meeting, subject to the approval of the Committee."
After a lot of discussion the meeting agreed to this proposal.
The EGM will take place on Thursday 8 April 2010.
If the EGM votes in favour of the rule above, I will draw up the new playing rules which will allow us to have 3 or 4 divisions next season, 1 of which will contain all of the teams who want to continue playing the current format.
The other 2 or 3 divisions will contain those teams who want to play the new format.
An example (note the word example - this is for illiustrative purposes only is in no way supposed to indicate actual teams!) of how the new structure might be is shown below:
(http://nottinghamsnooker.com/Images/Clipart/new_structure.jpg)
Teams will be asked to choose which format they want to play in at the AGM in September and they will be placed into the relevant divisions.
This is of course if the rule above is accepted at the EGM in April. If it is not then the Committee will have to consider what happens thereafter.
I have personally put a lot of work into this and I now want to see it concluded one way or another. I feel this offers the best compromise because clubs and teams will have a choice which format they play in next season and nobody will be forced to adopt a format they don't want.
I am surprised that so many teams are against the idea of playing two frames of snooker per person? Surely we all want to play more and this seems an ideal opportunity - plus with fewer players there is more chance for an upset against some of the better teams - ie playing 6 frames instead of the usual 8?
Is it some sort of coincidence that the vast majority of the teams that are against it are from Div 2 - or am i being cynical? Maybe they are concerned that their matches will take all night......
Im up for the new format - i dont see why people dislike change when its for the good of the game - more frames + more teams + more divisons = a winner!
:bravo:
I am 100% with Matt, it will only take the game forward with better standard and also more frames for each player (something which alot of players have been crying out for !!!!). If it were Sir Rodney Walker he would say "stay with current format", if it were Barry Hearn "lets take the game forward".
The main objective of any snooker league is to have it more recognised and also to bring better standard of play, now i dont see how the new format will stop this from happening, it can only improve it. I know the time is not an issue for the Div 1 players as you will only get a few chances per frame and then its over (even in a 1 table situation, should not be a problem). Now if the other lower Div teams feel that they dont want the change, then the best solution is that Div 1 go ahead and implement the change and run it for a year. This will then show how successful the format is rather than changing the whole structure for the other Div's.
If i have to vote at the AGM, then let it be !!!!! ;)
I think Steve has come up with a brilliant plan to keep everyone happy and if the vote goes against this proposal then i guess sadly the pro vote will have to look at other options. It's very frustrating that some clubs still seem confused about it all and it doesn't help that only 8 clubs (just 50% of the league) bothered turning up to be represented at the meeting last night where you can gain so much information about league matters.
Mike
Crikey it baffles me - Im certainly in favour of playing two frames, sometimes Im of the opinion when I have gone away to play one frame and the home team has only played on one table what a waste of a night.
I assume all teams under a new format would be obliged to use two tables?
I havent made a comment on this before but one of the reasons I want to change to this league is for the two frames set up. It would increase the standard of play and competition would be better over the two frames as playing just one frame can be very frustrating at times.
I know growing up in the Southampton league everyone used to have a team of 5, who all played two frames each over two tables and this never caused any problems and never ran on too late. It's been my favourite format to play in so far
Quote from: jamesmarcusmoore on 15 February 2010
I assume all teams under a new format would be obliged to use two tables?
From my point of view I think that any format the league adopts should be capable of being played by teams who, for whatever reason, need to play a match on one table.
There are clubs such as Oakleigh Lodge and Wollaton RBL who only have one table (Oakleigh are not allowed to use two because the other is for members to use).
There are also clubs such as Lenton and Cotgrave who have two tables. If we said they had to use both tables for a match they would always be limited to entering 2 teams and I would like these clubs to enter 3 or 4 teams.
One of the reasons the new format was suggested in the first place was because a large number of players (arguably the better players in division 1) want to play 2 frames each per match. This is understandable when you consider a player could travel to an away venue, play a couple of shots and find the frame is over after 10 minutes because their oponent has knocked in a 60 break. This doesn't tend to happen in division 2 matches so perhaps it's not surprising that playing 2 frames is not as important to them.
Another reason the new format would be an improvement though is that it would allow new clubs to enter the league (easier to raise 3/4 players than 6/7) AND it would allow existing clubs to enter additional teams more easily.
This latter point is more important to me as League Secretary because I believe it is my duty to encourage more players and teams to play in the league. I don't think I would be doing my job correctly if I just sat back and let the league tick over with the current clubs. If I had done this for the last 3 years, perhaps we wouldn't have had the likes of Nottingham University, Beeston Snooker Hall, Phoenix Cue Sports and The Peoples Hall in the league. These teams have been superb additions to the league, I think we would all agree on that.
You can see why there's a difference of opinion, generally between the two divisions and we have to accept that the stronger, perhaps more serious players, are likely to have different reasons for playing league snooker than the weaker, perhaps more casual players.
Hence why I have made my latest (and final) proposal which is to have both formats available next season so that teams can choose which one they want to play in. Maybe when we have done it for a season, if the new format is seen to work well, the sceptics may choose to adopt the new format in 2011/12.
I am in the baffled camp :question: :question: :question: :question:
I don't completely understand what it is that's made clubs vote no. You have to consider playing more than one format for many of the reasons mentioned by Steve. There were potentially 2 new teams just from Spot On Sneinton alone in the offing. I know a lot of teams would probably like to travel to what is a great venue.
I don't buy the argument that it is just weaker teams saying no. I think you will find that it is mainly teams with limited table space (nearly all the double no votes) that are against the change. I think there has been a misconception that less players would be able to play for them in the 3 man teams format. In fact the format allows exactly the same number of players to play more frames (which is why matches would start earlier).
Clubs should be aware of course that if there is option to play the new format, were it blocked at the AGM, then less money would be raised. Also it would be a disaster for NHSL if anybody just formed a breakaway based on the new format (especially as many of the best players want to play 2 frames). NHSL has to consider running the new format really, if there is a great desire among so many players for that reason.
I'm glad that Daniel, and a lot of others, are getting to grips with my original thoughts. YES the '3-man-team' or '6-frame-format'
IS the way forward. By registering a "minimum for 4 players" and an "unlimited-how-many-players" you would be able to play any combination of 6 frames providing no player plays more than 2 frames. Surely, it would be unnecessary for ANY match to be postoned by registering squads as above. AND it would get rid of the substitutes rule.
You have to appreciate that the Naz House Snooker League has been running for ? years, and, over the past couple of years there has been a lot of changes. But, if we are to go forward, there have to be changes. Everything looks rosey on the above format, BBBBUUUUTTTT, there are lots of things that have to be taken into consideration - and Steve (God help him) has to TRY and make it good for all concerned.
There have been a lot of suggestions behind the scenes (I am not a committee member but I have tried to use my experience of the local snooker scene) for example - how do you continue with the K.O. cup/plate etc, 3 man '6 frame' teams against 6 man '8 frame' teams etc. Steve is in a horrible situation.
Yes i agree that Steve is in a horrible position. He can't do right for doing wrong. That's the burden of league secretaries unfortunately. I was going to try out the 3 man 6 frame option during the summer, but have had a few objections. I can see why as our 4 man 1 frame system works well. As i always say it's the teams in the leagues that make the rules. We just administer them. What makes the NHSL different is the format it uses. Having 2 formats in the same league, albeit in different divisions, is going to be a nightmare to sort out. I'm sure that Steve can do it though. Good luck Steve!!!!!!
Running a league with two formats next season will be easy. The hard part is getting people to vote things in at the meetings. People don't seem to be able to see past their own team, unlike a Secretary who finds it easy to see the league as a whole.
If the doubters support the proposal to run with the two formats side by side next season, I'm confident it will go smoothly. The teams will be presented with a choice of formats and it's up to them which they enter.
As for the different formats being incompatible in cup competitions, that's quite right. We will need to have two KO Cup and Plate competitions, one for each format.
The competitions next season would be:
6 Frame League (New format)
League divisions (1, 2 or 3)
KO Cup
KO Plate
Divisional Cups
8 Frame League (Traditional format)
League divisions (1 or 2)
KO Cup
KO Plate
Divisional Cups
I'm quite relaxed about it now to be honest. What will be will be. I'm not going to try to persuade people to change their mind. They are entitled to their opinions. I respect Lenton, Wollaton, Cotgrave, City Hospital and Oakleigh's reasons for not wanting to change from the current format to a new format where they will potentially have to play 6 frames on 1 table. They feel that they may struggle to get all 6 frames played and even if they do, they feel the match may drag on a bit. That's fair comment. I just hope that these teams do not vote NO at the EGM as that will spoil it for the other teams that do want to try the new format. If they do vote NO, I would consider that to be a selfish act and not in the best interests of the league as a whole.
We'll see what happens at the EGM.......
If you are prepared to run 2 separate K.O. Cup & Plate Comps I cant see any problems. The 6 frame system should flow just as easily. Good luck with your persuasive tongue and Best Wishes with the vote.
Great post Steve. :bravo:
I agree with Mike that your plan is a great compromise. I hope we can find a way to keep at least one competition which includes every team. Not sure how it could be done though. I completely understand if you think it will be too much after this though.
Seems to me that you may as well have two leagues running simultaniously. The NHSL (old format) and the NHSL (3 man). You could even go one further and move the 3 man league to the Wednesday and then you might get some teams playing both formats. A secretaries life is sometimes not a happy one. Or is that a policemans lot is not a happy one?
Quite a few leagues play on more than one night, for various reasons. The Cardiff league (http://www.cardiffsnooker.org.uk/index.html) plays on Tuesdays and Thursdays. I hear the divorce rate is a lot higher in Cardiff too!
:laugh:
To make things simpler and to more accurately reflect the proposed new format;
the current format of 6 singles frames and 2 pairs frames shall hereafter be referred to as The 8 Frame Format;
the proposed format of 6 singles frames shall hereafter be referred to as The 6 Frame Format.
I think this is necessary because a few people seemed to think that the proposed new format would only allow 3 players to play 2 frames each when in fact it will allow 4 players to play - 2 playing 2 frames each and 2 playing 1 frame each.
Extraordinary General Meeting to be held on 8 April 2010
All persons present will be asked to vote YES or NO to the following proposal:
"A new set of rules will be written for The 6 Frame Format for the 2010/11 season. The new set of rules will be drawn up by the League Secretary and may be amended at any time without the need for a meeting, subject to the approval of the Committee."
If The 6 Frame Format gets the go-ahead, we will have two different playing formats running alongside each other next season and clubs will have a choice how many teams they wish to enter in each format.
On the 6 frame format I thought the idea was that if they only had 1 team they could register 6 (or more) players and they would then have the option to play 6 singles if they wanted to.
Allowing 6 players to play goes against what we are trying to do, ie. create more teams and divisions. If we allow 6 players to play then clubs are less likely to split their team(s) in two. There will be no incentive for clubs to enter more teams.
I also think that we would probably see teams doing what they do now in the current format. Currently, in important games, teams tend to play 6 players with the strongest 2 players at each venue playing in the pairs. I believe that they would do exactly the same in the new format, ie. they would drop their 3 weakest players and their 3 strongest players would play 2 frames each. This will make it virtually impossible to handicap a team accurately.
6 players would also have to travel in two cars, whereas 3 or 4 players can get in one car. Think of our planet!
I would suggest that if a team wants to play 6 players they should enter The 8 Frame Format.
The 6 Frame Format is more suited to teams who will have the same 3 or 4 players available every week, just like the Nottingham 6 Reds Super League (http://www.nottinghamsnooker.com/6red/).
I totally agree with you Steve....we can't allow 6 player teams to enter the new 6 frame format for the very reasons you have given. You have given all the Nottingham clubs the best of both options and this option would be a disaster for the traditionalists who want to continue to play the current 8 frame format as there is likely to only be 1 division for the 8 frame format.
The choice is quite simple....split the current team in two and enter 2 sides into the 6 frame format or stay exactly as you are playing the current 8 frame format.
Mike
Our Div 1 squad are quite happy and in favour of splitting into 2 x '4 man squads' and playing the 6 frame format and I thought the Div 2 team would be the same. However, if we cant register and play 6 players to keep everyone happy, we might have to reconsider, will have to have a word with Andy.
Only being able to select from a regular pool of 6 players (on several occasions this season we have had to call on substitutes from the 1st team) we dont have enough to split and make 2 teams AND as we really prefer to '2 frame option', would we be allowed to register 6 players but only use any 4 in one night ?.
I think that's an excellent compromise Alan.
We could perhaps have a rule which allows teams to register more than four players subject to the approval of the Committee. The team would have to demostrate to the satisfaction of the Committee why they could not form two teams from those 6 players. We would have to limit the number of registered players to 6 though because if they have any more than that then they would surely be able to play in The 8 Frame Format.
:thumbup:
of course if only people could see the benefits of being able to play reserves then Arnold could enter 4 teams no problem. Of course with most sides splitting therefore having at least 2 teams themselves they may see the benifits this time around.
Arnold CD A...CW, GS & JF (Div1)
Arnold CD B...MB, JN, BK (Div 2)
Anold CD A Reserves...SK, RT, KW, AC (Div3)
Arnold CD B Reserves...KC, PE, etc etc (Div4)
So you have a reserve team playing in a lower division which the 1st team can call upon when a man down. The reserve team can't play in the same division as the team it supports and can't meet in the cup.
Makes perfectly good sense to me, as it allows the really good players in the 1st team to be guaranteed 2 frames each and when one of them is not available it allows an understudy to step in and gain experience playing in the top divisions.
Mike
I just dont agree with the substitutions situation.
Originally clubs were only represented by one team. Then the like of Arnold and Pegasus decided to play 2 teams "A" & "B" in Divs 1 & 2 respectively. The 'old' rule of playing 3 times in the higher grade and then not being allowed to return to your 'lower' team was only just acceptable but then Bulwell also created an extra team but then that team got promoted. This meant another re-write of the rules. Last season the substitutes rule came in - where players could swap and change between teams with no penalty - and even play for 2 teams (of the same club) on the same night. This was frowned on by lots of teams but we at Arnold and I'm sure Pegasus would not have been able to compete in the League when sometimes we couldnt even get 5 players.
This is why I put forward the "6 frame,(minimum)4-man-squad" idea, where all squads were to be registered and there were to be no substitutions and swapping and changing.
Of our 6 players - one will not play away because he goes to the club as a social night with his dad, another is an 'on-call' fireman and if called out half way through frame he would have to concede it and the 3rd player is a Nationwide bus driver so never know when he is going to be available - this would be our plea to the committee to register a 6 man squad.
Sorry to put it like this but it's all a farce. If you paticipate in a league you don't expect different teams to be playing different formats or players. I think that the NHSL needs to devise a format that suits all teams and stick with it. The only change to that is if it didn't work, or needed rule changes to make it more user friendly. Using substitues from another team devalues the team that they play for usually. We are only here because the "A" team might need a substitute at some time. It doesn't promote team spirit. It doesn't make "lesser" teams push themselves to become better teams and win promotion.
Having said all that i still think that 3 man 2 frame teams are a good thing. I put it to my teams and they rejected it as they prefer the 4 man 1 frame aggregate score, home and away, format which we use in the NNIA and BDSL. It's their league and if that is what the majority want i will administer it for them as long as they want me too.
As one league secretary to another i would like to support Steve in all his endeavours to secure the NHSL to the viable vibrant league that it is now, but it needs some tweeking to make it better for all.
I agree with what Bob says (see below) - if you only have one team/squad that is fine. BUT, Steve is doing a brilliant job - trying to promote local snooker into the next generation and people want to go forward and create more teams/interest.
We are only here because the "A" team might need a substitute at some time. It doesn't promote team spirit. It doesn't make "lesser" teams push themselves to become better teams and win promotion.
fair enough.
Is the committee even considering the possibility of playing the 6 frame format on Weds and 8 frame format Tuesdays?
It would remove the need to worry about the substitutes thing if players normally playing on Weds (6 frame format) could turn out on a Tuesday in emergencies and vice versa.
e.g. I want to play the 6 frame format but would not mind turning out for another team once in a while if they were unable to raise a team. That way it won't effect your regular team if you support a team in the other format AND you don't devalue your division and team.
Would that help you at Arnold Alan?
Sorry to throw ANOTHER thought into the mix after what's happened but Bobs suggestion has some merit. It might even attract players from NNIA like Bob to enter a team as there is no clash with their league night. I can think of a player or two from both leagues who MAY want to play on Weds in the 6 frame format which would mean even more teams and more charity money. Remember BDSL have already turned down the new format but some of their players want to play it still.
If it's too late for next season then fair enough, but I'd like to hear what the committee think of the idea if only for future seasons. I'm convinced that there are enough of us interested in both leagues to do it on a Weds which would leave the current formats to continue as they are.
How many players are open to this idea? Are there any NNIA or NHSL players who think this is sensible. Is there scope for a joint NNIA/BDSL/NHSL competition on Weds?
Again Sorry to throw this in late... :sorry:
Yep, another reasonable idea for the pot.
But I know, that because of other club members committments, WE wouldnt be able to play any 'team' snooker on any other night but Tuesdays.
I also think the being of the NAZARETH HOUSE SNOOKER LEAGUE is already too fragmented and I wouldnt like to see many more diversities.
Thanks for your input Daniel.
There is certainly nothing unusual about leagues playing matches on different nights of the week, lots of leagues around the country play matches on more than one night. For example, the Saffron Walden Snooker League plays matches on Mondays, Tuesdays and Wednesdays and they have both a 3 player format and a 4 player format.
"A new set of rules will be written for The 6 Frame Format for the 2010/11 season. The new set of rules will be drawn up by the League Secretary and may be amended at any time without the need for a meeting, subject to the approval of the Committee."
If we get a YES vote at the EGM to the above, I will speak to the clubs who want to play in The 6 Frame Format to see if they would prefer to play on a Tuesday or Wednesday. Clearly if we played on a Wednesday then there is the scope for clubs to also retain a team on the Tuesday in The 8 Frame Format which would be great for the league. I am prepared to do whatever is necessary to maximize the number of teams and divisions in the NHSL.
The Tues/Wed alternatives might be great for the League BUT would mean that Arnold C.D. wouldn't be able to play in the 6 frame format on a Wednesday AND would only be able to field ONE team on a Tuesday UNLESS we were combine teams A, B & C (8+6) = 14, ie 2 teams of 7 playing in the 8 frame format.