THREE man teams (2 frames each) - Proposals Scrapped!

[Daniel]

Thanks Kwok, Mike, Steve, Steve and Robin,

There is nothing I can add to your thoughts on postponements.  :thumbup:

I completely agree with most of your comments.  It should be really tough to postpone as that is the best way to make sure we get through the fixtures and minimise manipulation.

You don't come across as a party pooper, Kwok.  It is a massive change so any objections need to be heard.  I just hope that there aren't people reading this who agree with you or have other objections but are staying silent.  Steve, do you know how many members have viewed this apart from those posting comments?

Unfortunately I think Bob has already considered trialling the new format in the summer but can't.  Some BDSL clubs/teams are against the change.

One worry is that if the 22nd December trials go well, there isn't really a lot of time for further trals.  When were you planning to call an EGM?  In  an ideal world most teams will have experience of playing the format at least once before they vote.  Is there some way we could arrange for teams not in the Knockout Semis, on the 19th January, to play matches using the new format instead.  I know it might be difficult to arrange but would give people the opportunity to make a more informed choice when voting.

[Jamie Moore]

with regard the 3 man team playing two frames sounds a move in the right direction in terms of raising the standard of the snooker being played, you will see better snooker being played and players will be able to relax more knowing one shot wont cost them the match. I would look forward to a two frame game .

[Sean Croft]

Steve, I'm going to share my apinion and say that I liked the idea of the 6 man teams that you stated earlier on in the posts. But I think that the three man teams are just too small and that format should just stay with the 6 red ball league.

Sean :thx:

[Steve Butler]

I've spoken to quite a few players now (including some that don't currently play in the NHSL but want to) and I can honestly say that the majority of them are in favour of switching to a 3-man team format.  The main reasons being that:

1. They want to play 2 frames
2. They don't want to play pairs
3. They would prefer to have all their team with them at the same venue
4. They want to enter a team but cannot raise the 6 players needed under the current format

Like Bob Wright says though, the league belongs to everyone who plays in it and NO rules will get changed unless the majority of clubs vote for the changes.  The current format has been successful and the league continues to attract new players all the time, however that doesn't mean it cannot get even better.  To me, "better" means more players, more teams, more revenue, more money donated to charity.  Whilst we have succeeded in doing this so far using the current format, I think we have just about reached the limit.  I think that to continue to grow we need to adopt the new format so that it is easier to attract new players and teams.

The strategy going forward will be:

1. Trials of the new format to take place in December/January.

If trials are a success:

2. Survey every member club to see how they are likely to vote and how many teams they are likely to enter.

If survey indicates majority of clubs will vote in favour:

3. Set up a working party to write new league rules

4. Call an EGM in May 2010 to vote on acceptance of the new rules for the 2010/11 season.

Kwok: Your comments are important.  When (if) we get to the survey stage I will be asking you to speak to your players to see how they feel.  BCI will be entitled to 2 votes at the EGM so if you and your club's players prefer to keep the format as it is you should vote to reject the new format.  It's important you make your votes count.

Sean: I will be asking Rob Wallace to speak to you and your City Hospital team-mates to see how you wish to vote.  City Hospital will effectively get 4 votes because two members of the Committee (Dave & Dennis) play for you and they get to vote as well.  If your team wish to keep the current format then you should make your 4 votes count and vote to reject the changes.

In total there will be 26 votes available to clubs (13 clubs x 2 votes each) plus 6 votes for the committee (Don, Pete, Me, Mike, Dave & Dennis).  So that's 32 votes in total meaning we would need 17 votes in favour to ensure that the new format was adopted.

Trials of new format on 22nd December
So far I think we have arranged the following trial matches which will be played on 1 table:
Stadium v Arnold
Arnold v Stadium
Pegasus v Oakleigh

If anyone else wants to arrange a friendly trial match on this date let me know.

[Kwok Yip]

Alright James! Welcome to the Snooker forum matey  :thumbup:


I totally agree with you James! Don't anyone get me wrong, I'm No (party pooper) "Cheers Daniel!" I Do like the idea of two frames, more the better! It Should improve the standard as players will relax more rather than in the one frame! This new 3player system also has many pros, I'm all for changes and new formats if it improves a already successful system who wouldn't!!!  I was just trying to point out some cons too as every system No matter how good it is, has it's drawbacks too! Better we try and establish any possible problems now we are at this early brain storming stage so we can address and resolve them asap rather than in "mid flow season hey!" I do sincerely wish this new system every success if it is adopted for the Nhsl season! It has been a successful format in the 6Reds and the super league. I just questioned if it was successful for the Super league because the better standard of players in general, and 6Reds for the nature of the game, speed if that's why it was successful!!

James is a "Top Player" defo a Super league player without any question! A genuine "Bci Legend!" if every player in the league was in his class, we'd have no problem playing more than two frames each, take my word for it this guy is seriously good! My Tip, I'd back him to win the premier league singles this season he's the man to beat               

[Steve Butler]

The strategy going forward will be:

1. Trials of the new format to take place in December/January.

If trials are a success:

2. Survey every member club to see how they are likely to vote and how many teams they are likely to enter.

If survey indicates majority of clubs will vote in favour:

3. Set up a working party to write new league rules

4. Call an EGM in May 2010 to vote on acceptance of the new rules for the 2010/11 season.

Following the success of the trial matches in December we are now at the Survey stage.

I have sent surveys out to a representative from each club either by email or snail mail (see bottom of post for list of recipients).

I have asked the representatives to consult with their club's players and answer the following basic questions before 11th February (date of next league meeting).

1. Will you vote in favour of changing the format to three man teams playing two frames each?

Vote 1: YES / NO
Vote 2: YES / NO

2. If the three man team format is introduced, how many teams will your club be entering?

3. The matches will need to start at 7.30pm to allow time for 6 frames to be played.  Will this cause you any problems?

Please ensure that your voice is heard.  Seek out your representative and let him know how you feel.  If you have any concerns or suggestions let him know what they are so he can feed them back to me.

Distribution by email:
Alan Cunningham (Arnold Civil Defence)
Kwok Yip (BCI)
Dave Gibson (Beeston Snooker Hall)
Rob Wallace (City Hospital Leisure Centre)
Adam Goodall (Lenton Liberal Club)
Don Merry (Mapperley Community Centre)
Robin Hicks (University of Nottingham)
Mike Langdon (Pegasus Snooker Club)
Steve Howard (Phoenix Cue Sports)
Distribution by Post:
John Cyrek (Cotgrave Welfare)
Spider (Oakleigh Lodge Social Club)
Jack Packer (Wollaton RBL)

[Nav Hussain]

2 FRAMES PER PLAYER ----->>>>> FUTURE OF NHSL

[Steve Howard]

Yes . . . i totally agree with you Nav . . . i hope that others once they've given it some thought,will see it is a step in the right direction,
especially as far as more teams is concerned.
Also . . with more teams comes the very real posssibility of adding more divisions
This can only be good for Nottingham Snooker and would raise more money for Charities too!
:thumbup:

[Nav Hussain]

Definately Steve, there are more benefits that will come out of the 3 man team in my opinion. More snooker clubs would be involved in providing half rate or even free tables such as Spot on Sneinton, Pegasus etc.. There will be more teams due to 2 frames per player and its something to give time to, rather than just 1 frame shoot out. Im sure if Barry Hearn was in charge he would go for this, probably also have music at the end of each frame and spinning bow ties !!  :laugh:  :laugh:  :laugh:

[phoenixcuesports]

Some thoughts.....

1. Think it should be a minimum of 3 players.

By this I mean allowing subs at half time. This allow clubs that have 8 players most weeks to give all those players a game. What we don;t want is the 7th player to stop turning up because he is never getting a game, and then obviously not being there when one of the other players is on holiday. Most of the more serious pool leagues have adopted this approach ( Notts supreme pool league - 2 sets of 6 frames- so you can play 6 players twice, or 12 different players as appropriate)

2. 6 frames at one table venues.

a)To be honest, phoenix will probably be playing most of their matches from now one on one table, as for the last few months all our other tables have been used by paying customers.

b) Single table venues will just not be able to get this done. 4 frames at Wollerton for example normally takes over 3 hours, so how the other two frames are going to fit in is a mystery.


3. only 3 players does not make a team.....

a) The best format I've ever played is the 5 players , 1 frame each on the long eaton league, it is after all a social evening out. Has anyone got their number? (He He)

b) if there are only three players, will fees for the teams be reduced? Will we end up raising less. Phoenix currently pay the entry fees for our 1 team (and cover table costs) into the NH league, with two teams this becomes even less economical, as we all know, snooker leagues are for fun, not to make money for the venues!

Do we start charging the away teams for tables? Maybe we make the away players pay our normal sign in fees, that we have untill now waivied for visiting teams.


Tried to give some honest views from the venues point of view.. hope this helps.

[Mike Langdon]

Hi Stephen. I think the idea is that Phoenix would create two teams not stay as one big team.  If sides are just going to stay the same there is absolutely no point in changing.  You kind of have two teams each week all ready ie home & away legs.  The entrance fees will be less for each team (probably half of what they are now) and as long as each team mutates into 2 their will be no loss to takings for the league.

re 3 players don't make a team...i disagree as a team is a team and the fact you'll all play at home together and the following week all travel away together will only make those bonds stronger and the night will be much more exciting as the result will be won, lost or drawn all together on the night.

re 1 table venues...yes this is a concern but the trials went well and we will have the 10/10 red option if time gets tight (ie once the clock hits 10 only 10 red frames will be allowed + we plan to start the matches at half 7.

I also believe that by hopefully moving from 2 divisions to hopefully 4 divisions it will also become a lot more competitive as well as creating a super league for the top top players.  It should also be a lot easier for new teams to get up and running. 

welcome to the argument as there is a lot to thrash out and as always any change will be down to the vote.

Cheers

Mike

[Steve Butler]

Like Mike says, your comments are welcome Steve.  This is what we need from every club because IF the survey indicates that we will get a majority YES vote on the new format, we will need to sit down and draft a set of rules which take into account everybody's thoughts and concerns.

I would like to comment on your queries as follows:

1. Think it should be a minimum of 3 players.

By this I mean allowing subs at half time. This allow clubs that have 8 players most weeks to give all those players a game. What we don;t want is the 7th player to stop turning up because he is never getting a game, and then obviously not being there when one of the other players is on holiday. Most of the more serious pool leagues have adopted this approach ( Notts supreme pool league - 2 sets of 6 frames- so you can play 6 players twice, or 12 different players as appropriate)

As has been mentioned before in this (long) thread, we may go for 4 player squads.

Should all 4 players be available on a match night a team may play all 4 players as follows:

Player A: 2 frames
Player B: 2 frames
Player C: 1 frame
Player D: 1 frame

Therefore every player can be guaranteed at least one singles frame every week (unlike the current system which only allows your extra player to play a pairs frame).

2. 6 frames at one table venues.

a)To be honest, phoenix will probably be playing most of their matches from now one on one table, as for the last few months all our other tables have been used by paying customers.

b) Single table venues will just not be able to get this done. 4 frames at Wollerton for example normally takes over 3 hours, so how the other two frames are going to fit in is a mystery.

I haven't played at Wollaton for a few seasons now, but do four frames really take over 3 hours?  Perhaps other teams who have played them this season would like to comment.

As discussed, all matches will be starting at 7.30pm instead of 8.00pm and any frame commenced after 10pm will use 10 reds.

We held four trial matches in December and all of them were completed within two and a half hours.

If you are playing two frames instead of one and you are getting spanked in the first frame, wouldn't you be more likely to concede earlier knowing you will have another frame to make amends?

3. only 3 players does not make a team.....

This season Phoenix have played 12 matches so far.  In every match except one on 1st December, you have had either 3 or 4 players at home and 3 or 4 players away.  In my eyes, these two sets of players are two different teams anyway.  I know they are playing for a combined cause but they don't exactly get to socialise with each other do they?  By simply creating two teams of 3/4 players out of these two halves, your club will have two chances to win a league trophy if they play in two different divisions.  Also, the new divisions will be far more evenly matched so they will both be more competitive.

Under the current format, division 1 has Beeston, BCI, Arnold and Pegasus who are far superior to Stadium, Phoenix, Mapperley and BCI Braves.  However, I am unable to create two divisions as each division would only have 4 teams in it!  Under the new format we would have 4 or 5 divisions and this would allow the new teams from Stadium, Phoenix, BCI Braves and Mapperley to actually challenge for a league title for once!

a) The best format I've ever played is the 5 players , 1 frame each on the long eaton league, it is after all a social evening out. Has anyone got their number? (He He)

I agree!  The most popular and successful format in snooker leagues across the UK is 5 players playing 1 frame each.  However, I actually suggested adopting this format in the NHSL at one of the league meetings and it was greeted with a resounding "NO".

However, having listened to players views over the last few seasons whilst I have been Secretary, one of the most common requests is "we want to play two frames each".  This is one of the main reasons for the proposed change to 3 man teams (it would be impossible for 4 players to play 2 frames each at one table venues).

b) if there are only three players, will fees for the teams be reduced? Will we end up raising less. Phoenix currently pay the entry fees for our 1 team (and cover table costs) into the NH league, with two teams this becomes even less economical, as we all know, snooker leagues are for fun, not to make money for the venues!

Clubs who pay team's fees for them will be no worse off under the new format.  My preferred idea would be a fee structure that would provide an incentive for clubs to enter more teams, such as:

1 team = £60
2 - 4 teams = £50 per team
5 or more teams = £40 per team

Clubs such as BCI who I expect can easily enter 4 teams would then be encouraged to enter a 5th team as there would be no increase in match fees overall.

If you enter two teams, I will create the fixtures so that the teams are never playing at home on the same night, so you will still only have to use one table.

Another point regarding the level of match fees in the NHSL.  The fees are fairly high compared to other leagues such as the NNIA, but this is because it is written into our constitution that we aim to raise money for charities.  Despite this, I am always looking at ways I can make the league as good value for players as possible.  Up until a couple of years ago the average match fees per season per team was around £120 but it is now £100.  Players also used to be charged £1 to enter each singles and pairs competition but entry is now FREE.  Players also now get subsidised entry to the end of season golf day and presentation dinner.  Furthermore, under the new format each player can expect to play 2 frames every week instead of the current 1 frame.  All this for £10 - £15 per player based on a four man squad!

Do we start charging the away teams for tables? Maybe we make the away players pay our normal sign in fees, that we have untill now waivied for visiting teams.

Some clubs pay their team's match fees for them but charge the teams a reduced rate for the tables.

Other clubs provide the tables free of charge but expect the players to pay their own match fees.  Stadium does this - we each pay about £15 each per season towards the match fees.  How much does it cost Stadium in electricity for the table light?  How much do they take at the bar from our team players and players from visiting teams?  Are Tuesday's traditionally busy nights in snooker clubs?  Most clubs state that a Tuesday is their slackest night of the week!

Alternative?

If there are a sufficient number of clubs that want to retain the current format, we could always have a mixture of both to keep everyone happy.  For example:



The teams I have used are purely for illustrative purposes as at this stage I have no idea which way all of the above clubs would prefer to go.

Clearly we would have to think how we could work the cup competitions.  I am sure we could make it work somehow though.

:england:

[Nav Hussain]

From the players point of view:-

When we played at Beeston a few days ago we talked about the 3 man teams and Beeston players were 100% with the idea of having the this format. They were happy that finally a player has at least 2 frames to play and gives them a better chance to get into the game. From what i have seen over the last 2 years is alot of players want to win and not just a night out and this is shown in the amount of breaks being hit in Div 1. There are players who want to play high standards and this is the only way the league will improve and generate more interest.

Nottingham league from my opinion is growing and getting stronger and have to move to the next level, the 3 man teams would be ideal and also less hassel in making sure you have the right amount of away and home players. We have to move to the next level !!!!

I understand where Steve from pheonix is coming from, but as an example, we spoke to Tom from Spot on Sneinton and he wants a Snooker Team to be formed at Spot on so he can get people into the club and see what happens from there. In return he would provide FREE tables, FREE Membership. Thats just one example, another one woud be Pegasus who are already providing the half rate tables plus free snooker on league match nights.

[Mike Langdon]

how awesome might the top division look next season?

BCI Ultra Elites....Jamie Moore, Jason Bettridge, Keith Holgate, Tony Collins
BCI Super Elites...Jonathan Mason, Kwok Yip, Neil Elliott, Paul Bell
Pegasus A..........Chris Brooks, Wayne Martin, Jamie Mathers + B team sub
Arnold CD A........Chris Winter, Gary Spencer, John Fountain + B team sub
Beeston A..........Neil Jones, Tom Walters, Clint I'Anson + B team sub
Spot on Sneinton..Nav Hussain, Stewart Crosswell, Zeb Ahmed, Yas Abbas
Sherwood............David Singh, Lee Crombie, Bash, Wayne Bilbie
Stadium A...........Barry Stark, Danny Di-Folco, Bob Walker + B Team sub

mouthwatering...i might actually stop playing and just start going and watching some of these top flight games.

[Wayne Martin]

Mike - don't get too excited -your our Sub  :blush: