Proposals for change 2011/12 Season

[Steve Butler]

I've just realised that what I'm basically proposing is that the NHSL folds and all the teams switch to playing on a Monday.  Not exactly a good thing considering I'm Chairman! Perhaps I should resign from the Committee altogether. 

A summary of the proposals so far which keep the league going:

Mike Langdon: 5 man teams (5 singles frames)
Mike Langdon: 4-6 man teams (4 singles and 1 pairs frame)
Alan Cunningham: 4 man teams, same format as NNIA

If I've missed any please let me know. 

PS. I don't think we have had anyone on here yet fighting for the format to stay as it is. 

[Alan Cunningham]

Sorry, I amended my last without see YOUR last.
I dont expect players to play Mon, Tues & Wed. BUT there are some teams and players whose social life is set for playing snooker on a Tuesday, if you a saying that they have now to either play on a Monday OR up their game and play at a standard which could be way above them on a Tuesday you will lose those players altogether. (City Hosp, Mapperly, Lenton, Cotgrave, Arnold 'B', Lenton 'A' & 'B').

I think most people have to accept that over the years we have gone from 8 man - 6 man and now really most consider a 4 man team to keep things going. 

We could of course have to NBSA Tuesday League with Div 1 being the Super League '4 players, 2 frames, 2 tables' and Div 2  with '4 players, 1 frame, 1 table'. Then of course you would get problems with relegation and promotion - who would be a Chairman.
                                                                                           

[Robert Wright]

It's all good fun Alan! At the end of the day it's what teams want that counts. We can only make proposals as to how things are going. We have to stick to what is available at the time. If that changes then we have to put other things to the teams and see what they think. Then we have to go with the majority. Who'd be a secretary, chairman, or anything else involved with running snooker leagues. We would - cause we love doing it!

[Alan Cunningham]

I know, its gud int it. 
Bin doing it for 40 years (no, its not about time I gave up) even remember (R.I.P.) the old County League - just trying to keep a happy ship and keep things going to suit the majority.

[Toby Bowley]

Mike Langdon: 4-6 man teams (4 singles and 1 pairs frame)

If I've missed any please let me know. 

I think this format is best for my team and no Steve i can only raise 4 players!

[Alan Cunningham]

The 8 man format worked for years and then numbers started to dwindle and then, to keep things going, we introduced the '3 singles and 1 pairs' home and away. This was fine until sadly it became abused when top teams were just using 3 players at home and away with the 2 better players playing in the pairs at each venue.
Again things need to be changed that is why I suggested that the Div 1 of the NBSA Tuesday (NHSL) become the NEW Super League - each team consisting of 4 players, each playing 2 frames (if your squad has more that 4 players and you want to keep them happy then integrate them into 4 players/2 frames set up). There would be no automatic relegation or promotion to/from lower divisions.
The subsequent Divisions of this League would still play on a Tuesday but with the '4 man single frame' set up.
I dont see why we need to start a new Wednesday evening scenario because I think you would lose teams from the NNIA & NHSL 

[Alan Cunningham]

The latest figures on the Wednesday night poll, 60%, seems to support what I have been saying -
1. Would not be able to play on a Wednesday night (20%)
2. Would play on a Wednesday - but would not play on a Mon/Tues as well.(40%)

[Robert Wright]

If there were no promotion and relegation what incentive is there for the lower division teams to improve? Also the lower league would always be won by the same/best team in it because they wouldn't get promoted and would always be the top team in the divisions. That's when we would possibly lose teams as they are fed-up of the same team winning every year. I know it's up too them to improve and beat the top team, but no incentive to do so if you don't get promoted and then pit yourselves against the "elite" teams.

[Alan Cunningham]

What I meant to say was there would be no automatic promotion to the Super League, (the main criteria being that they would have to have 2 tables available).  If your club hasnt got 2 tables available then you cant play in the Super League.
If the team winning Div 1 has two tables then, yes, they could be promoted
Also, a team not being a member of the NBSA, could obviously join and apply to go direct into the Super League if they have the right number of players and tables.

[Daniel]

The 3 miss rule being tried out in the top division. Most of us are now used to playing this in cup comps and singles league and it hasn't caused any problems so I don't see why we shouldn't be playing it in the league.

The reason we shouldn't be using it in any competition is that it's a made up rule.

OK, why do I give a @#!*?  After all it's no biggie, right?  Wrong.  It is the principle of what game we are playing.  Are we playing amateur snooker or making up our own rules?  We know your answer and it's the wrong one in my not especially humble opinion.  Should any player ever lose a frame because we are playing a rule not in the official rule book?  You know the right answer and it's the one I'd give. :lol:

[Daniel]

NBSA Tuesday Super League
Four man teams, each player playing two frames each. Teams must use 2 tables.

Can somebody please explain to me why:-
1.  If the 2 frames power play is a better format why NHSL as a whole can't all play that way and continue to have several divisions?
2.  If we adopted item 1, why that wouldn't be a good way of keeping the number of teams in NHSL high enough for the league to survive.

I'm sorry to say it but I find it intensely irritating that every time there is a mention of the possibility of playing a format really worth making the effort to turn up for (2 frames of snooker) then suddenly big prizes and "Super League" and such like start to be bandied around.  It is discussed as though it shouldn't be an option for lesser lights to be permitted the "honour" of playing what is clearly the best team format.

Has anyone else noticed this, or am I completely mad? (You aren't allowed to answer yes to that question)

P.S.  I am not against the idea of a big prize.  However, I think if there was no prize at all many players would still prefer to play that format, especially considering many teams can't raise enough players to play the old format.

[Mike Langdon]

Bad day at work Dan?

The plain and simple truth is an average frame time for let's say Bash v Nav Hussain is probably about 20 minutes. The average frame time if it was me vs you is probably about 40 minutes. You do the maths but you ain't gonna get many Div 2 teams willing to start matches at 5pm to ensure matches get finished.

I agree with you about cash prizes but as Steve has already pointed out we started giving out cash as a replacement to individual trophies which was one hell of a pain of job to get sorted, not as an incentive to play.

Yes you are correct that the 3 miss rule is a made up rule but it's a damn good one if you ask me for our level. Just cause it's not in the rule book doesn't make it a bad idea. It's certainly better than not playing it and more enjoyable than having to watch your opponent who isn't a pro afterall have miss called on him for the 15th time.

More and more sports are looking at having 2 sets of rules ie one for the professional/amateur game and another set for the recreational player (that's most us) whilst players like Bash and Steve Judd are classed as amateur due to the comps they enter. Hopefully snooker will also be looking at this so we don't have to feel guilty about playing an unpure form of the game.

[Nav Hussain]

I agree with mike about the miss rule, it's something that works very well for the nhsl and no ones ever complained about this rule. As for 2 frame snooker, this was discussed last year I think and I dont want to write down all the pros and cons but it's the way forward in my opinion. Some players may even sacrifice the 1 frame and do something else for the evening as they feel it's just not worth coming out for and has happened when I played for peoples hall.

If kept like this, I feel the league will lose more players and then eventually teams will pull out. Why risk all of the hard work that had gone into making nottingham into a very good snooker scene into something which does not bring in more teamsa nd then eventually starts fading.

[Daniel]

More and more sports are looking at having 2 sets of rules ie one for the professional/amateur game and another set for the recreational player (that's most us) whilst players like Bash and Steve Judd are classed as amateur due to the comps they enter. Hopefully snooker will also be looking at this so we don't have to feel guilty about playing an unpure form of the game.

Snooker does differentiate between types of snooker.  It has been made absolutely clear by the governing body that the miss rule is not designed for recreational snooker.  There is supposed to be an element of referee judgement in how the rule is implemented.  The way I am watching it normally played in Nottingham is that every time a player misses a snooker (except when snookers req'd) it is called a miss until the third time.  It is NOT a miss every time you fail to get out of a snooker as you know (being a ref).  If we are not meant to play it that way then players need to have clarity on this.  If we are meant to play it that way then surely that is not the miss rule being applied?

I agree with mike about the miss rule, it's something that works very well for the nhsl and no ones ever complained about this rule.

I would tend to agree with you both that it is a good rule (despite wanting to play the ACTUAL rules really) if it was played in the spirit of the real miss rule.  That would mean that it is not a miss every time you fail to get out of a snooker as many players (not all)  seem to think...

As for 2 frame snooker, this was discussed last year I think and I dont want to write down all the pros and cons but it's the way forward in my opinion. Some players may even sacrifice the 1 frame and do something else for the evening as they feel it's just not worth coming out for and has happened when I played for peoples hall.

If kept like this, I feel the league will lose more players and then eventually teams will pull out. Why risk all of the hard work that had gone into making nottingham into a very good snooker scene into something which does not bring in more teamsa nd then eventually starts fading.

I couldn't agree with you more.

The plain and simple truth is an average frame time for let's say Bash v Nav Hussain is probably about 20 minutes. The average frame time if it was me vs you is probably about 40 minutes. You do the maths but you ain't gonna get many Div 2 teams willing to start matches at 5pm to ensure matches get finished.

Hold on, we are already looking at 5 frames in the County cup and possibly in the NHSL league.  It's only one extra frame.

How about we start at 7.00pm (which will happen TO EVERYONE if the NHSL folds and we play in an merged league NNIA on Mondays with a "superleague" Tues) if there is only 1 table available and the last frame doesn't start by 10.45PM (THAT IS 45 MINUTES PER FRAME FOR THE FIRST 5 FRAMES!) then either captain can opt to have the last frame halved?  They could even be asked to take this option by 8.30pm to stop the rule being used tactically.  The reality is that teams would almost never claim the half unless they have no choice and matches would most likely be completed without too much of a problem.

For clarity, I have summarised the new format in my next post.  Please, listen to me.

[Daniel]

Summary of new format

Teams to consist of 3 players playing 2 frames each OR up to 6 players with the captain deciding on who plays which frames.  Matches to be played on 2 tables where possible.

1.  Matches to start at 7.00pm OR 8.00pm (at the discretion of the home captain if the home team can provide 2 tables).  Teams must have at least 1 player present at 7.00pm to start the match.

2.  If, due to slow play,  the final frame cannot start by 10.45pm then either captain shall have the option of having the final frame halved but must alert their opponents before 8.30pm (to avoid the possibility of players using the option tactically).  If both captains agree then the final frame must be played as normal.

3.  Teams will be awarded 2 league points for a win and 1 point for a draw.  In cup matches the highest break will decide the winner?

These rules:-
A)  Give teams 45 minutes per frame to play 6 frames.  That should be enough time.
B)  Allow teams with 1 table to enter.
C)  Allow clubs with 1 table to still have 2 teams.  One team can play away and one at home on any given week.
D)  Allow teams to play up to 6 players if they wish.  This gives captains more flexibility in terms of numbers of players.

This would make the league more flexible and exciting.  None of the other options under consideration offer us more flexibility (i.e  3 to 6 players and teams with any number of tables).  This is the way we should go on one night even if we opt for the 2 leagues to merge.  The top division could still have the big prize so giving something for all to aim for and a golden carrot to attract the best players.

Could one of you lot possibly print this summary off and take it to the meeting?  My printer is not working.  Thanks.

P.S.  Yes we have been here before but many agree that we made the wrong decision.  We can rectify the mistake on Thursday.  The arguments against this rule were spurious and some of the teams who voted against this have had to pull out of the league since then because they could not get enough players to play the old rules. Doh!

Why compromise?  We all want to play 2 frames surely?  If you want to play only 4 frames then enter the Monday league where that is already happening.