THREE man teams (2 frames each) - Proposals Scrapped!

[Steve Butler]

Loving the picture steve, very creative.

Thanks Jordan.  My captain, Pete Gormley, presented it to me last week to mark my 86 break last season.  It's really good compared to the dross he's bought me in the past (only joking Pete!) but my wife still says it stays in the cupboard until I get my snooker room built!

:angry:

Laurence - that's one of the things I've thought of too, having a flexible format similar to the one we have now allowing a team to play between 3 and 6 players to make up the 6 frames.  However, I think that by making it strictly 3 players, the other players are more likely to form another team which is what we all want ultimately.  I'm not sure either way really, which is why it would be good to get feedback from the teams it would affect most, eg. Oakleigh & Wollaton.

[Daniel]

For what it's worth, I am completely for this idea.  Not sure about the 3 to 6 players idea though.  Then we're back to playing 1 frame each.

The biggest worry is definitely how it will effect the teams without much table capacity.  I can't see them buying it.

The potential for inter-league competition is also really exciting. :england:

[Steve Butler]

I think we would need to make it playable on one table because otherwise:

a) the clubs with one table won't be able to take part;

b) the clubs with 2 tables will always be restricted to only entering two teams.

What we would need is a what if rule, ie. what if it gets to say 10pm and there are still 1 or 2 frames left to play.

Perhaps we could have a "10/10" rule:

The 10/10 rule
Any frame that commences after 10pm will be played with 10 reds unless both players and the club steward/manager agree to proceed with 15 reds.

I'm not sure what time most clubs close but I know that at Stadium Leisure you can play until midnight.  Therefore if it got past 10pm and there were still 2 frames to play, as long as both players were happy to play both frames with 15 reds then there would be no problem.  However, if another club closed at 11pm then maybe the players should agree to play both frames with 10 reds so that they should be completed before the club shuts.

I would hope that any rule like this would not need to be used because most matches, even on one table, would probably be into the last frame by 9.30pm - 10.00pm anyway so there should be plenty of time to play to a finish.  But, there would need to be a rule just in case.

We could go even further and make it a 10/6 rule:

The 10/6 rule
Any frame that commences after 10pm will be played with 6 reds unless both players and the club steward/manager agree to proceed with 15 reds.

Also, to make sure that every player played at least one full frame, we could make the playing order as follows:

1. Player A
2. Player B
3. Player C
4. Player A
5. Player B
6. Player C

That would also ensure that player C wasn't waiting around for 2 hours before they got a game.

[Mike Langdon]

yep that'll work as you're right we would definetely need a rule in place.

Like the term 10/10 ...clever that  :thumbup:

[James Robinson]

Id have no probs in trialing 3x2 in the BDSL especially if it gets more teams involved though unless i can persuade some more players at spot on bulwell to get involved i think you would still only get the 1 team from us.

I cant see why it cant work, im sure most players would agree they would rather play 2 frames rather than 1 gives you more to play for then.

Though can agree with mike on the fact of what do you do with the 4th player for those teams that only have 4 players (like my own team for example) though yeah you could alternate every week.

[Steve Butler]

Though can agree with mike on the fact of what do you do with the 4th player for those teams that only have 4 players (like my own team for example) though yeah you could alternate every week.

If you split your team in two and each pair recruited just one extra player then you would have two teams.  There must be a couple of people in the club or a couple of mates that would come along for a bit of banter and a couple of frames?  You could advertise for a player in the local shop windows or better still on the notice board at the local secondary school.  Maybe I'm dreaming again.....

[Steve Butler]

I've been doing a bit of research with other UK snooker leagues.  There are quite a few leagues that are switching to smaller teams in order to provide players with 2 and sometimes 3 frames each.

I have received some positive feedback from Jim Seaman, the Secretary of the Stafford & District Summer League, which trailled the 3-man 2 frames each format in the summer.  Here's what he said:

Hi Steve,
the format of our (newly created) Summer League was widely regarded as very successful by those that competed. It was seen as a pleasant change to our normal format of 5 singles matches and gave a chance for "revenge" for players that lost their first frame. Handicaps were applied at the start of frames but results were on frames only as if it was made into an aggregate score result, then matches could go on for too long when all balls are needed to be potted.

I personally took part in some matches where at a three table venue, all were put to use by mutual agreement, and those matches were finished within an hour. At two table venues, matches were finished within between 1 and a 1/2 hours and 2 and a 1/2. Some slightly longer but non past 10.30pm that i'm aware of. We did have a one table venue (Derrington, village side) and i've had it confirmed that the one extra match (as opposed to normal 5-a-side) made little difference in that matches were ALL completed by 10.30pm latest. And with respect, this was not always with the highest standard of players.

A draw scenario was new to our league and it was welcomed as a fair result if that's how it ended. The league was played in a very light hearted (and making a pleasant change ;-) manner. It could be regarded as a test case for the Stafford League that has received only praise from it's competitors and very much looking forward to next season.

The only thought expressed was that it "MAY" have been nice to play two different people on the night, but it was agreed in general that this would probably make matches longer.


:happy: :england: :happy:

[James Robinson]

Yeah i guess you got a point there steve, spot on bulwell is bigger than what masters was so im sure i could track down some new talent,
guess ill have to keep my eye on some of the members then.

I do have plenty of contacts on my phone unfortunatly most of them either play pool on mondays aswell or wont comit full time to play snooker on a monday.

[Ross Wilkin]

For what my opinion is worth... 3 players 2 frames sounds ideal. In my opinion...

Pros:
Many players dont like doubles (i certainly dont)
Hard to settle into just one frame (whatever your ability)
Might be nice to have closer matched ability to your 2 other team-mates
Added dimension of possibly moving up or down within your A,B,C etc team as well as usual division promotion/relegation
Possibly more flexible for players who may need to leave early or start later as don't have to wait around for the doubles

Cons:
Take longer but 7.30 start seems reasonable to me (a very big and busy league in Grimsby start at 7.00!)

[Kwok Yip]

I like the sound of all these new and wonderful ideas regards formats, i'm always in favour of longer matches as it SHOULD bring out the best in all players rather than having to play so tight in single frame matches. BUT just echoing a convo i had with a good mate of mine Chris Clarke after a match at City Hospital we both said it's a cracking idea being like the old super league format BUT it's the issue of Time and clubs who only have one table or clubs that only play on the one table! In my experience a single frame duration time can be down to 1001 factors! Take for example a match earlyer in the Nnia league between the My very own Bci Elites team And the mighty City Hospital team, it was a match between two Top Players Jason Bettridge and Chris Clarke, Jason openning up a good lead against ther dangerous Chris, Classy Chris Clarke coming back very well with some super snookers this fantastic single frame against these two awsome player believe it or not these two quick firing players tuck over an hour. Another match was Malc V Steve "they'll kill me for reminding them!" in last seasons Bdsl league, this good single frame 1hr 40mins.

So as you can imagine, if every match was like the examples used above there would not be enougth hours in the day to finish these matches, and at the end of the day the result is just as important as the first or the last frame. Every match is so different, i played a best of 7 in the last 8 in the City Hospital Archie Radford cup last monday and won 4-0 in under an hour! I think this 3 player 2frames format is a good idea and worked well in the Super 6 Reds because the frames were quicker to play, though i do recall one frame still taking an hour! But in general i can only see this work either in the Super league where you have a better standards of players or the 6 reds! Adjusting the match to the ten reds rule after 10 o'clock seems strange!

Maybe a New idea for the summer league, rather than the 4 man team and play for the 5th frame on points, What abpout a 5man team then every frame is just as important and the draw result now void! Whats your thoughts.......

[Kwok Yip]

Or somthing completely different like a Pairs league maybe...!

[Robert Wright]

Don't think that a 5 man team would work as some teams struggle to get 4 players in the summer. I don't think a pairs league is worth running as most teams in the NHSL are complaining about having to play a pairs match.

[Daniel]

I see your point about some frames being too long Kwok, but the Stafford League seemed to cope with the length of matches and apparently the standard isn't that high.  A couple of rule changes though can cover the difficulties.

1.  As already suggested, 7.30pm starts will help.  Remember even if this is a bit early for some players surely all teams have somebody available to start the match at 7.30pm and other players can arrive later to play their frames.

2.  In the unlikely event that a match is not completed then the match could be completed at a mutually convenient date.  There is already the facility to agree to postpone fixtures so it would be similar but simply agreeing to postpone only part of a match.

To be honest, I think matches would normally finish on time, especially with Steve's 10/10 idea.  Remember in matches of a lower standard the safety tends to be poorer and games often finish quicker that you expect.

Still no feedback on here yet from Oakleigh, Wolloton or several clubs.  Has anyone mooted the idea with anybody from those clubs in person of by phone so far?

[Steve Butler]

The majority of feedback has been positive so far.  Everyone I have spoken to has said that they would prefer to play 2 frames and scrap the pairs.

We have had a bit of flack for changing some league rules at the AGM in September from the clubs that were not represented.  Whilst I always maintain that those who don't come to meetings are in no position to complain, I also believe that rule changes that are as fundamental as those we are talking about here would need to be voted on by every club.

I therefore propose to survey every team via their captains so that I can see what vote we are likely to get.  If the format is to be changed then I would need to convene an EGM around April/May so that there is sufficient time to prepare for the next season.  I think this is the best thing to do from now on anyway because the turnout at AGM's is not great.  With an EGM I can circulate the proposed new rules in the post and two representatives from each club can vote using a voting form, thereby not having to attend in person.

Once I have received the survey results back from every team I will make them public so that we can see what everyones thoughts and concerns are.

[Kwok Yip]

All great ideas kind'a brain storming at this stage! I think one of the main reasons why it's proving to be tricky at this stage is simply because Thanks to Steve Butler and Mike Langdon for the Nhsl league and Bob Wright and James Robinson for the Bdsl and the Nnia league we already have fantastic formats so to improve by implementing changes can only be very tricky!!! What ever happens, i personally would like to see a slight rule change, I think All teams that Only play on the One table or only has the one table option should Always play their home matches half an hour early in the Nhsl league, so for example If my Super Elites Team played Beeston, at Beeston they will break off at 7:30! and at Bci normal time 8pm as we play on two tables so therefore both venues will finish more or less at the same time. Just an idea, any thoughts anyone..........?

As for the issue of the pairs frame in the Nhsl league,  i think it benefits the better team because you can field a more stronger 6 player team rather than a 8 man team! The 6player team has it's advantages when teams are genuinely short of player however i feel it's implemented by many teams to strengthen teams. I personally whould be happy with either so long as it's the same rule and format for all teams!