THREE man teams (2 frames each) - Proposals Scrapped!

[Alan Cunningham]

Just for a start I would like to thank all the readers and contributors of NHSL Forum for the response we have had to my original suggestion of '8-man-teams'. I would think this has perhaps caused more discussion amonst players and replies to the Forum than any previous subject (perhaps Steve could confirm this).

I think that now we ought to actually consider a 4-man-squad, initally each squad/player to be registered with the League, THREE of that 4-man-squad would then play 2 frames each (6 frames in all) so you would get 2 match points for a win and 1 match point for a draw. There COULD be a slight variation in this where players 1 & 2 definately played 2 frames each and the 3rd leg of 2 frames could be played by players 3 & 4 (if you see what I mean). The frames For/Against would total up at end of season and could be decisive. If a match was a draw I would NOT suggest adding up the frame points scored because that could extend the length of frames and time is important trying to get 6 frames in.
Players listed in the 4-man-squad would NOT be allowed to swap and change between squads and would be tied to that squad for the season.
Squads would not be allowed to cancel/defer a fixture unless EXTREME circumstances - power failure or flooding at the venue etc.
There would be no trivial excuses, if you didnt turn up you would lose 2 match points and concede the match 0-6. Out of your 4 man squad you could still go with ONLY 2 players and get a winning result. So, if necessary you could go with ONLY 1 player, at least he COULD win and that COULD addd up at the end of the season.
Just a couple of final observations and questions - all matches to start at 7.30pm (there was a 50 min frame this week). Should all players carry their handicaps into these frames?. Depending on how the night is going for time the 3rd leg OR the final frame COULD be reduced to 10 reds.

[Robert Wright]

Sorry Alan i can't see the 1&2 playing 2 frames and 3&4 playing 1 frame working as it leads to arguments in the team of who plays 1&2 and who plays 3&4. I'm turning out to play 1 frame why is it they are playing 2. Why can't i?
Je ne Compend Pas- Why is it that all players in the NHSL have handicaps? All players in the institutes play off scratch. The best players will out as it goes. Sorry about the french. For those who don't understand it means i don't understand.

[Steve Butler]

Just for a start I would like to thank all the readers and contributors of NHSL Forum for the response we have had to my original suggestion of '8-man-teams'. I would think this has perhaps caused more discussion amonst players and replies to the Forum than any previous subject (perhaps Steve could confirm this).

You may recall that in February 2008 you started a similar discussion on the future of Nazareth House (see HERE).  This led to a proposal being put forward at the 2008 AGM to have a premier division consisting of 3-man teams.  The proposal was rejected with the majority of people present at the AGM saying that they liked the existing format and also enjoyed playing the pairs.  The thread from 2008 received 17 replies but I can confirm that this current thread has received more replies from different forum members than any other thread.

I think that now we ought to actually consider a 4-man-squad, initally each squad/player to be registered with the League, THREE of that 4-man-squad would then play 2 frames each (6 frames in all) so you would get 2 match points for a win and 1 match point for a draw. There COULD be a slight variation in this where players 1 & 2 definately played 2 frames each and the 3rd leg of 2 frames could be played by players 3 & 4 (if you see what I mean). The frames For/Against would total up at end of season and could be decisive. If a match was a draw I would NOT suggest adding up the frame points scored because that could extend the length of frames and time is important trying to get 6 frames in.
Players listed in the 4-man-squad would NOT be allowed to swap and change between squads and would be tied to that squad for the season.
Squads would not be allowed to cancel/defer a fixture unless EXTREME circumstances - power failure or flooding at the venue etc.
There would be no trivial excuses, if you didnt turn up you would lose 2 match points and concede the match 0-6. Out of your 4 man squad you could still go with ONLY 2 players and get a winning result. So, if necessary you could go with ONLY 1 player, at least he COULD win and that COULD addd up at the end of the season.
Just a couple of final observations and questions - all matches to start at 7.30pm (there was a 50 min frame this week). Should all players carry their handicaps into these frames?. Depending on how the night is going for time the 3rd leg OR the final frame COULD be reduced to 10 reds.

I agree with almost everything you have suggested there Alan.

Considering Jim Seaman's comments regarding this format being used in the Stafford League, I think that the instances of matches going on past 10.30pm would be few and far between.  The "10/10" rule I suggested would be there just in case it were needed but I doubt it would have to be used very often if at all.  It's just important to have it there just in case.

In fact, if you think about it, where 2 tables are used (which should be the majority of matches), it's highly unlikely that the match will go on much past 10pm.  It's only if 1 table is used that we may need the 10/10 rule.  I appreciate that if Arnold CD were to enter 3 or 4 teams then you may need to play your home matches on 1 table.  If you ensured that the playing order was Player A, Player B, Player C, Player A, Player B, Player C, then each player would be guaranteed one full 15 red frame and only player B and/or player C could be faced with playing a 10 red frame.  I'd be surprised if the players were upset by this because they are still playing more snooker than under the current format.

I don't think we should use handicaps because the whole structure should mean that teams are a lot more evenly matched than under the current format.  I think this was evidenced in the 6 Red league in the summer where teams were all capable of beating each other.

Here's an idea.  There are two blank weeks coming up on 22nd December and 5th January.  I think we should arrange a few friendlies using this new format on 1 table and make a note of the finishing times and how many of the matches have to use the 10/10 rule.  I'd be happy to sort out a team from Stadium to take someone on.

Why is it that all players in the NHSL have handicaps? All players in the institutes play off scratch.

Every player now has a handicap because of the new divisional cups which will get underway in the new year:

Divisional Cup Format 2009/10
All teams in division one will compete against each other for the Division 1 Cup and all teams in division two will compete against each other for the Division 2 Cup.
A random draw will be made prior to each round and the team drawn first will be regarded as the "home" team.
Matches will be decided on frames won and lost, NOT aggregate points.
Matches will consist of:
   3 singles frames and 1 pairs frame at the venue of the "home" team.
   3 singles frames at the venue of the "away" team.
Thus, a total of 7 frames will be played ensuring that there is always a winner.
All players will use their individual handicaps during the match, eg. player A +7, player B +21 = player B receives 14 start.
In the pairs frame, the pair will receive a handicap equating to that of the better player.
Any player not in possession of an individual handicap shall play with a handicap of +14.
Team captains should contact the league secretary prior to the match if they require a handicap for any player not already in possession of one.
The final shall be played at a neutral venue using the format for play-off matches (see section F of league rules).

[Alan Cunningham]

I cant see any problem for the trial 22nd Dec & 5th Jan. I'm sure WE could put TWO '4-man-squads' together.

As for Bobs (WRIGHT) query of the 3rd leg 3/4 player. You are obviously going to play your best TWO players at 1 & 2, one particular week you may only have 3 players so there would be no problem BUT if one week you have all four members of the squad available surely it would be better to give players 3 & 4 the chance to play at least one frame. After all it is a team competition and surely you are not going to play your No.1 at 3 or 4.  This would also encourage teams to revert back and play their players in order of merit.

[Alan Cunningham]

We could, also consider a two tier Nazareth House.  Div 1 & 2 playing the new 3 x 2 frame system and Div 3 playing the current system

[Daniel]

We could, also consider a two tier Nazareth House.  Div 1 & 2 playing the new 3 x 2 frame system and Div 3 playing the current system

I can't see anybody wanting to play the old format if this one is introduced.  I know I wouldn't.  What's the point introducing a better format and then only some players getting the chance to play it?

[Alan Cunningham]

The ideal scenario is to play at a venue where there are TWO tables available. You have to appreciate the lesser teams ( no disrespect ) where this is only ONE table.

One obvious solution would be to limit each frame to 30 mins, then with a 7.30pm start would definately be finished by 10.30. But I think that would put too much pressure on the frame referee and be TOTALLY unacceptable ! ! ! .

[Steve Butler]

Three more leagues that are now using the 3-man team format are Westerham, Gloucester and Byfleet Snooker Leagues.  Below are extracts from their playing rules.  As you can see, a flexible format seems to be the preferred choice as this allows teams to play their reserve(s) should all players be available on the night.

Westerham
Matches in Division 1 and Division 2 are to consist of SIX single frames. 

Matches in Division 3 are to consist of FIVE single frames.

Before the commencement of the first frame, the captains or in their absence a player from each team, shall present to each other, a FULL list of players in order of play, this order cannot be altered once the match has commenced without the agreement of the opposing Captain.

A minimum of three and a maximum of six players can play. All matches shall start not later than 7.30 pm. Any team not ready to start by that time shall concede the first frame, if the second player is not present by 8.00 pm then the second, third, fourth, fifth and sixth frames shall be forfeited.

Gloucester
Six frames are to be played in total with one point being awarded to the winner of each frame. The minimum number of players to be used is three and a maximum of six, or any combination in between. Both teams do not have to play with the same number of players. No player can play more than two frames.

The attendance times for the frames are as follows:-

1. 7.00 pm First player plus marker
2. 7.30 pm
3. 8.00 pm
4. 8.30 pm
5. 9.00 pm
6. 9.30 pm

Byfleet
A team normally consists of 3 players playing 2 frames against the same opponent i.e. 6 frames. However 4 players are allowed, 2 of the 4 only playing one frame.

[Alan Cunningham]

The BYFLEET system seems to be the 'slight variation' that I suggested -
"There COULD be a slight variation in this where players 1 & 2 definately played 2 frames each and the 3rd leg of 2 frames could be played by players 3 & 4 ( 1 frame each )".

I think the 4-man-squad would definately work in Div 1 & 2 with a 7.30 start but I dont know about Div 3 - it would be good to keep all the Divs on the same footing, perhaps just change Div 3 to a 7pm start.   Or all to a 7pm start, surely a team could get at least 1 player, perhaps 2, there for 7pm

[Daniel]

7pm for Division 3 could work (or Division 4 with enough entries,I think this format WOULD be POPULAR). To be even more flexible, maybe it could be on agreement that if you can't start until 7.30pm then frames starting after 10pm will be 10 reds.  What do you think?

Alan, for the record, are you against the 10/10 idea in principle?  I agree that if possible it should be 15 reds.  I think many club managers/stewards would let you play until 11pm at least if required.  Teams could always play a player like me last if the match doesn't start at 7pm, one who won't mind the odd late night I mean.

There are so many ways around making sure a match is completed I think the chance of a match running out of time, at most clubs, is virtually nil.

Steve/Alan, if you are short of numbers to trial the format let me know and I'd be up for playing.

[Steve Butler]

I think 4 man squads is the way to go guys.  If we charge each squad an entry fee of £60 for the season then this would work out at just £15 per player or a maximum of £20 per player if the reserve doesn't pay/play which is fantastic value when you consider that each player will get:

1. 28 league frames
2. At least another 8-10 cup frames
3. Entry into the handicap pairs comp
4. Entry into the handicap singles comp
5. Entry into the Singles Championship

We would need to get 27 squads entering to keep match fee income on par with what we get now.  This is one of the reasons I need to survey every club, to see how many squads they would be likely to enter under the new format.

I recall speaking to John Cyrek last season, he said that some of his players at Cotgrave cannot get down the club before 8pm due to work commitments.  So there's a possibility that some players would not be able to start at 7pm.  However, the way around that is for the captain to list the playing order so that these players play at 5 & 6.

I think we could make it so that teams using one table (when at home) start their match at 7pm but teams using two or three tables start at 7.30pm.  However, I would like to see how the trials go on 22nd December first.  I know there are always a few frames that take 1 hour but in a match of 6 frames I would expect there to also be a few frames that take 20 minutes so it could easily even out.

Did you say you could get 2 teams together for 22nd December Alan?  If so, I would be happy to get 2 teams to compete against you at your club.  Would we be able to get two tables at your club Alan?  You can come and play for one of our two teams on that night as well Daniel.  It will be good fun!

[RHicks]

Wow- I forgot about this thread and came back with it being massive!

I think 3 man teams would be great. As has been previously mentioned no one is going to complain about getting two frames. Although I quite like the pairs frame I know several of the guys on my team don't like it that much as you can't really get in a rhythm.

To me what would basically happen is the current format being cut in half- teams cut from 6 to 3 and so the number of divisions doubling. In terms of us although we always get our six it changes from week to week as a lot of our guys have other stuff that can get in the way. As a result a '4-man squad' idea would be bad for us. I also think it's a bit unfair that this system would stop someone who's playing well in a say B team switch up to an A team and vice versa. I would suggest there should be an unlimited number of players can be registered to either the  'A and B' squad list OR the 'C and (if there is one) D squad list'. This would allow for small movements between teams but stop players too good for a C team moving down and playing for them. Another negative for 4 men would be that new players wanting to join a team during a season (and the season is quite long) would not be able to as the 4 men are decided at the start of the season.

In terms of start time, we have three tables so we could have an A, B and C team playing simulataneously if all at home. Our Sports Centre closes on the dot at 10-30pm. I'm guessing only two teams would ever be at home so there would be a spillover table if struggling for time but a 7-30pm start time would be preferable. As already mentioned not everyone would actually have to be there for then.

[Daniel]

If the tables are available count me in Steve.  :thumbup:

[Alan Cunningham]

Reply to Daniel. No I'm not adverse to the "10 red" BUT I wouldnt like to see it come into every frame, the ideal situation would for it to be used in the last (6th) frame when time limitations are the essence. In EXTREME instances it could be used in the 5th frame.

As for the suggestion of the 7pm starts, or putting it back to 7.30, you have to take into consideration that IF you are away at a venue that has only ONE table and the match drags on towards 10.30 - example Cotgrave playing at Wollaton - the Cotgrave lads have a 30 mins travelling time. You MIGHT also find that teams from further afield, Newark, Mansfield or even Worksop MIGHT consider applying to put a team(s) in.

In reply to R.HICKS comments about cutting his team from 6 to 3 players. The suggestion of 4-man-squad was intended to mean a MINIMUM of 4 players to be registered, you could still register your 6 players - or even add more if necessary - and only use 3, because as you say, people have unexpected committments. This WOULD stop squads swapping players which is obviously causing a lot of debate and concern this season especially for us at Arnold and Pegasus

To Steve. Personally I cant see a problem with the 22nd, but they MIGHT only let us use ONE table. I know it is down as a blank week on the fixtures but will have to confirm it with the Committee. I am away from 5-19 Dec (winter sunshine) but will obviously let you know before then.

[RHicks]

Ah that's cool- up to 6 man squads makes sense