THREE man teams (2 frames each) - Proposals Scrapped!

[Kwok Yip]

if i had to be honest, I rather like this existing Nhsl format it's become rather traditional good well known and unique format! I do have my doubts about this new format of 3 man two frames! As i mentioned in one of my previous posts, I thought it worked well in the 6 Reds league because of the nature of the game. This New format is prity much the same as the old Super league format! I think it worked for the Super League because a better standard of play which always helps. If the 6 Reds was anything to go by, you will still get many postponed matches as teams will be reluctent to play a fixture against a Top team unless they had their Top 3 players available rather than using their so called 4th player!

Two frames are good, but it has it's problems too! Because of time and the one table problems we have, then you'll tend to get people turning up later in the night to play their match which is good for the one or two who may finish late, but i feel it will miss the great team spirit we have in this existing format. If we all just turned up played and went after our individual frame/frames then it will just be like an individual match rather than a great team effort as it is now. Mixed views, i don't know! Trial and error i suppose, as i'm sure i mentioned already once before, the main reason why it's proving very tricky to implement new changes is simply we already adopt a great working format!

[Steve Butler]

Two excellent posts there Mike & Kwok which highlight the potential pros & cons of the 3-man team format.

It will be good to see how the trials go on 22nd December.  We'll keep a note of how long each frame takes and provide some feedback on the forum.

A simple rule can help promote good team play:

Players 1 & 2 must be present and available to play at 7.30pm.  Player 3 must be present and available to play at 8.30pm.  Any player not available to play at these times will concede one frame.  If players 1 & 2 are not present at 8.00pm then the match will be conceded 6-0.

A rule like this will be needed anyway to ensure that all 6 frames get played in a reasonable time on the night.  We can't afford to allow teams to turn up late when we have to fit 6 frames in, particularly if there's only one table to play on!  I would imagine that a team playing at home will usually arrive before 7.30pm so that they can get some practise and make the most of the home advantage.  A team playing away will most probably travel away together from their home club having had some practise.

This rule is also needed to ensure that there are players available to referee the frames.  How many times have you heard people moaning about players that turn up, play their frame and then clear off without reffing a frame?

As a captain, if you have a player who regularly just turns up, plays his frames and clears off, do you really want them in your team?  I can understand it happening occasionally due to work or other commitments getting in the way but if a player did this every week he wouldn't be much of a team player would he?

[Mike Langdon]

I'll try and sort a trial match between Pegasus 'B' & Oakleigh Lodge for the 22nd which will give a good pointer for the lower division teams.  Will also be good to guage Spider's views on the subject as he's never on this forum and is one of the most out-spoken at the meetings.

Mike

[Steve Butler]

That would be great Mike.  When I was there the other night he mentioned the idea of a friendly on the 22nd so he would definitely be up for it.  The beer there is very cheap too, £1.60 a pint I think we paid!

[Daniel]

No doubt about it, between 4 and 6 divisions would be worth a few arguments.

Kwok, you mentioned what's maybe the biggest con with this idea - that some of the team spirit might go being in a smaller team.  However you will definitely get to know your team mates very well in a 4 man squad which creates a different kind of bond.  You are also still playing for a club too so that element remains.

Something else  you mentioned was teams being likely to postpone as they can't field a full strength team against a top team.  Remember, with more divisions you are unlikely to be playing 'top' teams unless you are one.   More divisions means teams should be closer in ability level to other teams in the same division.  I can see there being a few seriously one sided cup matches though.

[Kwok Yip]

Alright Daniel,

I have a great bond with my Bci Super Elites team, like all great successful captains should have. I think it is very important to have that kind of relaionship I have the greatest respect for all my players and in return I get great support and backing for being the team captain organising and making those decisions and every now and again putting in a key performance of my very own!

The Bci snooker club can field either 8player, 6player or even 3player formats! Talking from experience regarding postponed matches Top flight snooker tends to be far more competitive and there for inorder to get the edge player selection is far more an issue than in the lower leagues where it is more "fun!" for example if based on this new format

Pegasus team
1) Chris Brooks, 2)Wayne Martin, 3) Nav, 4)Mike Langdon
if Pegasus was playing another top side like Beeston if one of the first 3 players was missing that day, even I can't blame them for postponing that very Big game against agains Beeston as they are an very very tough side to beat! I'm Not saying for one min that don't play Mike! This was just an example "my apologies Mike" I'd have you in my team any day Mr lucky Langdon! "Mike's a great player to have and will compliment any team! But it's just tha Edge I'm talking about! Not as important in lower leagues!     

[Daniel]

Kwok,

Thanks for getting back to  me.

I see what you mean what you mean about players selection and maybe postponing matches to get an edge.  However, I just think that surely even in an 8 man format this can happen anyway if a couple of strong players are missing.  It might be slightly more likely in a 4 man squad but not much more.  There is the same chance of 2 players being  unavailable for a 8/6 man match as 1 player being unavailable for a 3/4 man match.  Having said that, I have to admit, you are a team captain and I'm not.  You have a better idea of what is likely to lead to a captain wanting to postpone a game than I do so your opinion is more important than mine on this.

What do other team captains think?  Would you be more likely to postpone in a 3 play 2 frames than with the current format?

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[RHicks]

Can see both the arguments displayed about postponing games. We have 3/4 players who are that bit better than everyone else so if a couple couldn't play the best team would be slightly weaker. And the higher up the league pyramid you go the more important that slight edge could be. However we'd never postpone in those circumstances as at the end of the day it's for fun. If you win great  :happy: but it really doesn't matter. Postponing as one or two people can't play also devalues the other members of your sqaud as they're there to step in if. If I was one of them I'd be - :angry:

[Steve Howard]

Hi Daniel,
As captain of Phoenix,the 3 man 2 frame,would be great! As,i've always the 3 available anyway, so we wouldn't need to postpone,even if 1 or 2 of our best players weren't available,i have other 'squad' players to select from, (they know they mite not always be selected, when the better players are available).
As, (i think) most teams have a 'squad' to select from,then there should be no!! need for postponing,(solely just because their better players aren't available)indeed,if they 'have' the,said 'squad' then they're there to be 'selected',and 'should' be used,no postponing should be allowed. If no 'squad' players available then that's fair enough!
In any case,what's the point in having a 'squad'  to select from,then not playing them until your better players are available,makes the other team players feel 'worthless i'm sure.
I think i have made a very valid point!

[Mike Langdon]

No offence taken Kwok....it was quite nice to see my name next to those cracking players.

For me it's quite simple NO POSTPONEMENTS unless adverse weather conditions in which case the league should call a blanket postponement of that weeks fixtures.  If your missing your best players hard lines but a title is won over a whole season not just one match. The current 24 hour rule gives teams a loophole to get out of playing matches and that needs to be closed to manipulation.

Teams would soon find an extra player or two for the match rather than concede the result.

I also feel that we could avoid walkovers being awarded if we allowed players from B,C or D teams to fill the gaps as the 4 man squads would allow flexibility.

for instance....The A team has only 1 player available on that particular night.  They could take 2 from the B team to make 3.  The B team would then take 1 from the C team to add to the 2 remaining players to make 3 and the C team would be left with 3 = All matches played with no walkovers.

Perhaps the B team might have a really important match so they might just allow the 4th player to play for the 1st team and take 1 from the C team....it's flexible.

You could also add the only teams who are only allowed to turn up with just 2 men are the last team from a club or those with only 1 team who would incur the 2 point penalty for 2 players playing 3 frames each.

I understand the view that it'll be really annoying for a B team to lose perhaps their best player on occasions but it doesn't have to be the best player they let go....i guess it depends on the clubs ethos.  My ethos at Pegasus is that the A team comes first and that the B team is there to support the A team and to allow players the chance to gain experience, improve and hopefully get to the standard where they're knocking on the 1st team door.  

[Mike Langdon]

Hi Steve...think i posted at the same time as you but couldn't be bothered to review it.  Think we're along similar lines especially on the No postponements.  :thumbup:

[Steve Butler]

I personally also would prefer no postponements.

I thought I would list some of the other UK league rules concerning postponements so that you can see just how strict some leagues are compared to ours:

POSTPONED MATCHES
Any postponements must have the permission of the league secretary with at least 7 days notice and have the agreement of both team captains. Any league match postponed for any reason must be played within 14 days of the original date.  All rearranged league matches must be played before the last league match date.

Postponement of League Matches
1. Due to the fact that teams can register as many players as possible, postponement at very short notice is not allowed. Any offending team will be fined 6pts.
2. Any team committing this offence more than twice in a season will be expelled from the league and will not be allowed to compete the following season or their registered players.  Also all players concerned will not be allowed to play for anyone else during the current season. So even if you only have one player available it would be in your teams best interest to attend the match and forefeit any frames left over.  Exceptional circumstances will be left up to the committee`s discretion.
3. Matches may now only be postponed through the match sec. giving at least 14 days in advance of the match in question. A team can only postpone a match if their opponents can mutually agree on that match being played within a calendar week of the original match date.

POSTPONING A LEAGUE MATCH
13a ONE match per season may be postponed if notice is given in writing at least two weeks before the game to the opposing captain/contact and the Fixture Secretary. Any extenuating circumstances with regards to further postponements will be dealt with by the Committee.
13b A postponed match must be played within 21 days. The home team to give 3 dates to play. These dates must contain 2 different nights of the week, and must not clash with any match being played by their opponents in the WARRINGTON SNOOKER LEAGUE. If the away team cannot agree to any of the date's given, then the League will decide the date of the rearranged match. Failure to play the match, (decided by the council) will result in the NON OFFENDING team will be awarded the match (7 points) and the OFFENDING team fined £10.00.
13c No league match to be played after the end of the season without the permission of the Fixture Secretary.

Match Postponements
A game can be postponed if both Captains are in agreement, but must be played within 14 days of the original fixture date, failure to do this or if the opposing Captain is not in agreement, then the team who forced the postponement will forfeit the match 3-0.

Postponements
A minimum of 24 hours notice must be given, except in the case of severe weather conditions. Failure to give the correct notice period will incur a five point deduction. All postponed matches from the first half of the season must be played within one week of the half-way point of the season. All postponed matches from the second half of the season must be played within one week of the end date of the season. When a match is postponed, both team captains must notify the Match Secretary in advance of the date on which the match was to be played. Any postponed matches should be re-arranged as quickly as possible. Failure to play matches within the given timescales will result in the postponing team forfeiting all five points to the opposing team.

[Kwok Yip]

Great views Everyone :thumbup:


I do like the sound of this new postponement rule! personally i like to just get on with it, i can't even remember if i have ever had to postponed a match as i'll try everything in my powers by calling upon my super reserves! Obviously if i had to, i'd give plenty notice as get the match re-arranged asap! Sometimes because of many postponements you can have quite a few blank weeks! I remember my first match this seasons Nhsl league it was after the charity match at Bci when i spoke to Steve Butler and Mike Langdon saying i am very short of player for my first match against Phoenix. On the night itself we played Phoenix i only had 3 of my regular players, but rather than postponing the match i made endless amounts of calls and managed to get 3 reserves in so the match could go ahead. My reserve players still gave me 110% and we needed it against Steve's Super Phoenix team! I agree with Mike, if the rule was no postponements! then you'll see teams take a chance and play their reserve player more rather than concede their match on the night! Obviously sometimes postponements can't be helped, i do recall still alot of postponed matches in the 6 reds we had and that's 3-4 players too!

In the 6 Reds for the Bci we had 4 teams!  Two teams in division 1 and Two in division 2! In division 1, The Bci teams was split we had a strong team to challenge for the title and we had a powerful fun Giant team which produced some Giant results against some top teams, same in division 2. I believe we had a team that won division 1 & division 2! and the other two teams in a good mid table position. Great Fun the 6 Reds, i think most people liked it a great success thanks to Steve and Mike! This as i mentioned was a fun league after the main Nhsl league. I think if we did this as a pilot test in the Bdsl league after the main Nnia league we could give it a fair go to see rather than changing this great successful unique Nhsl format. To all those who want to try it can contact Mr Bob Wright who is always looking for new players and teams to enter his great leagues too!

[Steve Howard]

Hi Mike,
Yeh our two great minds are thinking alike!! :thumbup:
Obviously,in certain circumstances,postponments are occasionally,gonna' crop up,but as a 'MAIN RULE' we both agree 'NO POSTPONMENTS'!
I think 'ALL' teams should they not have a 'squad' should!,set about drumming up some 'spare' team players to call upon as 'reserves',indeed,some players are happy to help out,but also may not want to play every week,this is 'perfect! for a tream with only a few players,who occasionally find themselves 'stuck' when first team players are: ie: on holiday,ill etc!!
cheers all!!
:thumbup:

[Kwok Yip]

My sincere apologies if I come across like a Party Pooper regarding the New 3 Player team format! That's Not my intention! I think everyones opinion is equally as important "Danile!" regardless if your a player or captain. It's great to listen to all people concerned, their views so you get the better representative random sample of peoples thoughts! I like the two frame idea alot, my main concern is that Will it lose the great united  team effort that exists in this fantastic current system we have already! Two leagues, one goal and a united team effort. Or 3players In a 4,5 or even six different leagues, Will you get the same impact? Another point is because it's a 3 Player team, even if clubs played on the two tables because 3 being an odd number it'll still take the same time as if you had a team of 4players on two tables! In the current Nhsl format we use, I play players 1&2 First on two different tables, then players 1&2 join to play in the pairs on one table and my player 3 plays on the other table. I find alot of teams still haven't adopted this simple formation when they play on the two tables and end up still waiting for a player just about to break off their singles frame to finish so they can now suddenly play pairs!
I do think the current system is great and it'll be sad to see this unique system go....

But looking at it from another angle, if you never try then you'll never know! I'm 100% sure whatever system we next adopt I'm ver confident that both Steve & Mike will continue to do a fabulous job!!! Keep up the awsome work  :thumbup: :thumbup: