THREE man teams (2 frames each) - Proposals Scrapped!

[Ross Wilkin]

Don't know if anyone has mentioned this, but I also think its good that with more smaller teams, its more interesting to see B or C teams improve over seasons and maybe rival their A teams and vice versa. For Example there might be a B or C team with 3 promising younger beginners who you see move through divisions, I think this would be more interesting for everyone than if they happened to join a 6 or 7 squad under current format (and they'd still benefit from any tips, advice etc from their clubs senior players).

Ultra Elites Mike?  :laugh: What about their C and D teams? Elites and Lesser Elites?

Hmmm, perhaps Stadium could go with Stadium Kilo Bytes, Mega Bytes, Giga Bytes and Tera Bytes? ;-)

[Robert Wright]

What about the micro and mini bytes?

[Steve Butler]

When we played at Beeston a few days ago we talked about the 3 man teams and Beeston players were 100% with the idea of having the this format.

Nav - you say they were 100% for it, but I have received their survey result back and it was a 50/50 split so they will be casting 1 vote FOR and 1 vote AGAINST.

I guess talk is one thing, but actions are another!

[Nav Hussain]

That suprises me Steve, because at the time it was the 3 man team. They have a decent squad of 8 players , so may be its due to that some players went against it. Even then it would be good to have 2 teams, it would be more competitive... I hope the 3 man team goes forward !!!

[Mike Langdon]

looks like one of the main concerns about this proposed new format is the time issue.  The trials ran without problem and we finished both trial matches at Pegasus by half 10 even though we didn't start until 8pm (this was our B team against Oakleigh, both Div 2 sides).  However I fully understand the concerns of many of the division 2 clubs especially those with only one table who foresee time problems.

The majority of division 2 matches tend to go right down to the final colours with a lot more missed opportunities hence the longer frames whilst frames are often conceded in the top flight before the final colours even come into play. If the voting went for the new format and we ended up with 4 divisions perhaps.

Division 1 & 2 could play 6 frames of 15 reds with the 10/10 rule to fall back on when play on the night is slow and tactical.

For Division's 3 & 4 where the standard is lower the following format would get around the time issue. 

when only 3 man teams:

Player 1 (frame 1)......10 red
Player 1 (frame 2)......15 red
Player 2 (frame 3)......10 red
Player 2 (frame 4)......15 red
Player 3 (frame 5)......15 red
Player 3 (frame 6)......10 red

when a team has 4 players on the night:

Player 1 (frame 1)......10 red
Player 1 (frame 2)......15 red
Player 2 (frame 3)......10 red
player 2 (frame 4)......15 red
player 3 (frame 5)......15 red
player 4 (frame 6)......15 red

I think it should also be pointed out that 10 red is nothingy like 6 red and plays much more like the traditional 15 red format.  Even John Higgins uses it in his World Series event for the early group matches.

The other misunderstanding about the new format is that teams with only 1 table would only be able to enter 1 team therefore freezing out many of their players.  The fact is that teams with only 1 table would be able to enter 2 teams as we would ensure with the fixtures that when the 1st team are at home the 2nd team would be away.

Mike

[Steve Butler]

[Steve Howard]

Hi Mike,
I agree with what you have just posted,though i think,as long as we do form 4 divisions,(as there used to be back in the 90's),then i feel that in Divisions 1 & 2,you would be able,i think,to keep the full 15 reds, as i expect the 2 top divisions to be able to complete all frames in the allotted time.
May occasionally have to have 1 or possibly 2,(at most) frames with just the 10 reds.
May also benefit the 3rd and fourth div's if they are so worried of the time,and not completeing all their frames,then they could play ALL their frames with just the 10 reds?
Or a 'mix & match' obviously as they see 'fit' of 10 & 15 reds,it would be at their discretion,depending on how that team is doing for time?
I don't forsee ANY problems for any team with so much scope to fit in their frames,wotsoever,1 table venues,only have 1 team there on the night,whilst there other 'b' team and even 'c' teams would be away!

ON a final note:

Why don't we all just trial it for the 1 season,i think then teams/players will have much more idea as to it working or not?
It's the only REAL TEST as far as i'm concerned,you have to put "IDEAS INTO ACTION" then people can have their say,but with so many ways of 'fitting in' the frames, i don't think there will be any prob's at all,i think far too many are too sceptical of change,i think that's what it boils down to,some people just don't like change,and i'm afraid to point out that,it's the way of the world today.

I think we've 'thrashed' this out long enough now people,don't you?,we've looked at all the endless possibilities there's nothing left to 'thrashout',so come on i say . . let's just get the votes in now,and let's vote 'for change',otherwise we get 'STALE' & 'STAGNATE' don't we!!
Remember . . .

Change is not a bad thing,for some though,it just takes time to get their head around it,that's all . .

Steve Howard,signing off . . .

[Steve Butler]

You talk a lot of sense Steve - fancy coming to the league meeting a week today?

Whilst you're on, are you able to fill in the blanks on THIS POST ?

[Nav Hussain]

"JUST DO IT" - (NIKE)

[Steve Butler]

[Steve Howard]

Thanks Steve,i do like to think i have my head screwed on when it comes to snooker,but . . .

i have remained unbiased in my 'open way of thinking',there should NOT be any more quotes of: 'what if . . . etc! until all the teams have actually experienced it for 1 whole season,then after all the thrashing out of this subject,you simply can't reject it in it's 'INFANCY' until everyone's played it . . .too many are quick to jump on 'THE BANDWAGON' and say . . .Oh! this won't work etc! This is totally ludicrous!,there should be no qualms until all teams have 'trialled' it in an actual 'season',before ANY critiscisms are even made of whether it will work or not!

There are people who think a 3 man team doesn't constitute a team,of course it does,anything above 1,is classed a team,for example:
the cox's pairs in rowing . . . what are they if theyr'e not a 2 man team,working together,so lets not have any more of the 3 man team,not being a team,getting confusing now  :laugh:

I think as i've already highlighted,too many have gotten used to the 4 man team,and are thinking 'prehistorically' to inject some new life into snooker,and indeed any sport,eventually you have to move forward,no more backward thinking!
This sport,has lost 2 divisions in our leagues, since the 90's, what more of an indication do people need, as A WAKE UP CALL,to realise creating more div's and thus creating more teams,is what were all thinking of achieving! You'd ALL be soon moaning if there wasn't enough teams to even make up any div's wouldn't you? . . .i rest my case . . .

Can't add to the Phoenix scores,as i wasn't there tues night steve,i woulda' thought, in my absence, that someone woulda gotten the scores and particulars, like i would usually do myself . . .oh well . . does anyone at arnold have them?

If i can get on the 11th steve,is it,i would love to come to the agm where's it at?

Steve Howard,once more, signing out . . .

[Steve Butler]

The meeting is 8pm at Lenton Liberal Club.  I'll buy you a pint if you turn up!

There is always the option of trialling the format in the summer in the Nottingham 6 Red Super League.  A bit crazy considering the name of the league but at least then we could trial the format prior to the start of the new NHSL season so that we can iron out any issues.  We still wouldn't be able to guarantee that it would be voted in at the AGM but at least then we can say we tried it!

[Steve Howard]

Just to further add to my last 2 posts and my 'open views & way of thinking',i have already stated that to really see how the 3 man 2 frame proposals will work i have stated that the ONLY way to know for sure,is for us all to have 1 complete season playing this new system. . .

Well . . further to what i have already put forward,which i do consider the ONLY WAY in which we will 'ever trully know' for sure how this proposed system will work is . .

To have a MINI-SEASON just a short-ish series of matches, (for all teams),so no need for my original complete season and then we can revert back to the 'Mainstream Season' should we so wish . . .

The real beauty of my way of thinking is . . .

If for the 'SCEPTICS' out there, they realise it really IS working,(contrary to what they originally thought),then my proposed Mini season can then revert to a 'complete full season',and . . .it will have proved to the
'sceptics' that as i've  always  'concerred' . . .

That you can't dismiss something until it's been tried and tested . . .

Yes,i know there's been a few teams trial it already,but i'm talking of ALL TEAMS in my proposed 'mini-season',for a SHORT TERM ONLY for all teams to trully find out for themselves,that it can work for all . . .

And that includes 1 table venues also . . .
Now let's get something sorted . . .

And no more 'sitting on the fence' with this subject . . .

This has been Steve Howard,

Thanks for reading . . .

[Steve Butler]

We have decided to scrap the plans to change to 3/4 man teams next season.  With the likes of BCI Super Elites and Beeston Snooker Hall against the change we will not be able to achieve our goal of making all divisions more competitive.

We will still be holding an EGM on 8th April 2010.

Having listened very carefully to everyone's thought and concerns we feel the following proposal will give everyone what they want:

Division 1
The pairs frames will be dropped altogether.
At each venue (home/away) 6 singles frames will be played.
A total of 12 frames will therefore be played in a match.
Teams can use between 6 and 12 players in a match (no player may play more than 2 frames).
Matches will still start at 8pm but two tables must be used.

Example Match

BCI Super Elites 6-6 Beeston Snooker Hall

At Beeston
Neil Jones 1-1 James Moore
Andy Spicer 2-0 Jonathan Mason
Johnny Kareer 0-2 Cpt Kwok

Beeston 3-3 BCI SE

At BCI
Jason Bettridge 1-0 Ant McMahon
Tony Collins 0-1 Ant McMahon
Tony Collins 1-0 Clint I'Anson
Paul Bell 0-1 Tom Walters
Paul Bell 1-0 Shane Kidd
Sam Haugh 0-1 Chris Hodgkinson

BCI SE 3-3 Beeston 

Division 2
This will continue using the current format.



In both divisions there will be NO POSTPONEMENTS except in exceptional circumstances (bad snow etc.)

The rule allowing the use of substitiutes will be scrapped.

The format for KO cup, divisional cup and play-off matches is likely to remain unchanged (ie. pairs frames will be played) but this is open for discussion.

We accept that we may lose one or two B teams if this new proposal is approved, however we feel the team spirit and sense of fun that is so important to many of us will be retained.

As I have mentioned previously, I had a couple of new 3/4 man teams waiting to join the league next season.  Clearly these teams will not be able to join us now so I will put them in touch with Bob Wright so that they can play in the Institutes league instead.

Your thoughts and comments please?

:question:

[Mike Langdon]

I have to say that I'm deeply disappointed by the final outcome of this whole saga.  I kind of feel like I did back in 1992 when somehow the Tories retained power when all exit polls suggested otherwise :angry:.  I wrote on this forum several months ago for people to seriously consider the bigger picture when voting on this issue, sadly it would appear that these words fell on deaf ears.

Had we been able to push this through with all the clubs on board we would have had at least 4 maybe 5 strong divisions. We are now potentially, without being overly dramatic in serious danger of only having 1 and a half divisions next season (8 & 6).  Arnold Civil Defence look unlikely to be able to raise 2 teams next season and if Gary has ended his successful time at the club it will probably mean the B team losing Sean Kelly further reducing their already wafer thin squad.  I also understand BCI Braves have some inner turmoil at the moment which must also raise a question over their ability to enter a team next season whilst Mapperley are also finding it tough.  It also ends Sherwood's hopes of returning to our league whilst you can forget new teams we had lined up from Spot On Sneinton, Rileys and an unnamed team that was guaranteed for next season.

It is so difficult to get new teams to enter when you need at least 8 players to form a team...still it should be good news for the Notts Institutes League who may pick up where we miss out.

I urge all members to support our new proposal of at least getting the 12 frame match format in place for the top division from next season which I think is a fine compromise on the argument.

With regards to the new rules proposed I applaud the new rule of no postponements.  Am sad to see the unpopular Substitutes rule go (bigger picture again guys).

Would prefer to see just 6-8 players rather than 6-12 allowed to play in a match, as I don't think this encourages teams with a decent number of players to set up a B team and for those Greenies out there it means 2 cars travelling to a match.... Think of those Polar Bears!!!

I also can't help feel we could have saved ourselves a lot of time and energy if some captain's could be bothered to represent their club and turn out to the odd league meeting or two.

Therefore I would like to propose that failure to attend at least 1 in every 3 meetings would see the guilty club punished by the docking of 2 points.  

Mike Langdon (NHSL Tournament Secretary)