THREE man teams (2 frames each) - Proposals Scrapped!

[Lee Crombie]

This being my first input on this subject i would like to speak on behalf of Sherwood social now known as (the club) now speaking with the lads they seem to want to play in the nshl league next season. Regarding 6/12 man team totally think this is a bad idea think we may be able to put one team in BUT talking with them i know we could put in at least 2 teams to the proposed 3/4 team so hopefully the 3/4 team is not dead and buried yet so i will there at the next meeting (lee crombie)

[Daniel]

 :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry:  AAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry:

:sorry:  Had to get that out.  :sorry:

I had a bit of faith that after all this debate current teams would decide to look forward.  That faith was completely misguided apparently.

NHSL had an opportunity to be a more interesting and varied league, with lots of divisions, very high down to low abilities having suitable opponents, a number of new venues to play at, many new players getting the chance to experience real competitive club snooker and players being rewarded with 2 whole frames of pleasurable match play every time they made the effort to turn out for their team.

If I have to describe how I feel, disappointed would be an understatement. :sad:

I would have thought if you can't be bothered to turn up to meetings or have your say on here (you know who you are) then you could at least have some trust in the likes of Steve and Mike when they advise a course of action.  The people who care passionately enough about Notts snooker to dedicate hour after hour of their own time and do a FANTASTIC job have every right to be disappointed.  I know  I haven't been around NHSL for long, but thats what I think.

I know the league is about the current players and teams and I understand that you have the right to look out for your own interests.  Steve Howard has commented on how things can and have declined in the past.  Imagine if every team under this new proposal lost say 2 players.  What would be left?  I hope the short term interest of teams doesn't cost NHSL too dearly in future years.

I still  hope going to the EGM might not be a waste of time.   I guess we'll have to wait and see....

[Robert Wright]

...still it might be good for the institutes league who may pick up as we lose out.

Sorry Mike, but it sounds like you think that the institutes league is inferior to the NHSL. THe standard of play is as good, but you may have some of the better players?

I don't really want to pick any team up, because the NHSL can't get a format that suits them all. I don't want to pick up teams that would sooner play in the NHSL, but can't due to not having enough players will settle for the institutes. I know i picked up Sherwood social Club this season due to lack of players. I was hoping that it would be a one off. Steve and i have a gentlemans agreement that we will not poach teams for each others leagues. Most of the teams play in both leagues anyway.

I would also like to point out that i am all for the "underdog". That is giving the teams that play for the enjoyment of the game, not just to win everything, some chance oif winning a trophy. That's part of the reason i introduced the divisional cup matches, as Steve has too. To give the "lesser" teams something to have a chance of winning.  Lets face it it isn't all about the BCI 'E'lites, super Elites, Pegasus, Arnold CD, Beeston SC and Sherwood SC's of Nottingham. There's also room for other teams to play and maybe improve their standards. If it were all about the top teams then there wouldn't be any leagues, because no other teams would enter.

[Mike Langdon]

Sorry Bob haven't got a clue where you got the impression that i think the Notts Institutes league is inferior to the NHSL from  :question: :question: :question:

The quote you highlighted doesn't suggest such it just states that they won't be able to play in the NHSL now that we're sticking with the minimum 6 man teams whilst they could if we had chosen to go with the new format.  All i said was our loss will probably be your gain, quite where you got the inferior from is beyond me.

I also dont appreciate your misguided view that all i care about are the big 4 teams in our league and care little for the other teams and the players of lesser ability of which I am one.  For the record I have taken time out to help some of our younger players with their game and to get them involved in Nottingham Snooker and have campaigned for a more structured and fair handicapping system.  I also objected to a motion to just allow one team up from the second division and came up with the idea of play-offs to allow more teams a chance to have a succesfull season!!!

Mike

[Kwok Yip]

"CALM DOWN DEARS, IT'S ONLY A COMMERCIAL!"

I know this is a very heated ongoing debate, but let's try and keep focus on the issue and whats important!!

Firstly, as a player & captain of Bci E'lites & Bci Super Elites the  Winners of league and cup for both leagues i would like to say both leagues are terrific and doing Nottingham snooker priud!!!

Seconly Steve, Going back to your original point Personally speaking as Player/Captain for the Bci Super Elites i like your new idea i think it's far more practical!!!

I think the idea of playing two frames is great, and now with you new great plan we have the option of still playing two frames plus the great option of playing one frame also still! Genius Steve! This will also give teams and captains far more options!!  "best of both worlds!" I pesonally think if you went ahead with the other idea it'll cause a great big divide and dilute the quality of the terrrific Nhsl league which is at it's best!! I say best because, for years Arnold Cd have dominated now the quality of the league is that good now there are many teams challenging for the title!

Finally just touching on the issue of Nhsl Meetings! As i have already mentioned in one of my earlier posts, due to the nature of my work and it's commitments that follow i am unable to attend these meetings, however i will be having word to see if i can find another rep for the Bci snooker centre Asap!!!!

Regrads Cpt Kwok  :smokey:       

[Mike Langdon]

That'll be good Kwok as I can't actually remember the last time BCI were represented at a meeting...tut,tut 

Glad that you're happy with the new proposal but i must confess to being concerned with the impact of staying in large teams with regards to our numbers for next season (I can't see it being 16 teams again).

Still it's time to move on and start pulling in the same direction again to ensure a healthy future for our league.

Cheers Mate

Mike

[Daniel]

Kwok, you are a superstar mate but I do have to differ with you a teensy bit.  (Here he goes again I anticipate you all thinking). :sorry:

This is NOT the best of both worlds for everyone if you think about it.  Only teams who can consistently turn out 6 players will get the chance to play 2 frames.  In fact even if you can turn out 6 players, unless they are all playing snooker to a fairly high standard you will have to enjoy being slaughtered regularly to bother entering in division 1 (where you can play 2 frames).

It's almost sneaking an elitist 'super league' in under the radar from where I'm sitting.  It looks to me like the big 4 (or 5 with Sherwood) plus Nottm Uni, Phoenix, Stadium and maybe a 'B team' (if they are STRONG it MAY be worthwhile).  A lot of the other teams who have one table cannot, even if they do have several great players, enter the top division any more!  Not fair.  A lot of the players (myself included) will almost certainly be excluded from playing what many players agree is a better format.  This certainly discourages players hoping or expecting to improve (again including myself) and hoping to play in the top division from playing for a small club with 1 table  or even a club with 6 or seven strong players already as there is little hope of playing at the top level anymore. (B teams will only be in top division if your club provides 4 tables now).  I know the intention was not to be elitist but it is the outcome nonetheless.

For this reason, the compromise is basically great for the current strongest players but only if they play for certain clubs.  It also suits clubs who want to play the current format but only if they are happy to have no hope of playing the in the better division.  It discourages so many other potential future clubs and improving players and is NOT forward looking to my eyes.

Sorry to be the Victor Meldrew of the forum.  I love you all really. :blush:

However, I'm not going to pretent to be pleased... :sorry:

[Robert Wright]

Mike. Sorry mate i was just feeeling a little down at the time, am having alot of work done on the house and it was getting me down, and as for the inferance, it looked to me like oh! we can't have them in the NHSL so we'll dump them on the Institutes. I wasn't trying to cause any i'll feeling as you know my efforts are to move forward in the game for all teams and all leagues. I'm sure most of us on the forum feel the same.  :sorry:

Daniel. Kwok will always be a superstar! I do agree with you a little on what you say about elitist teams. Yes there will always be the better teams and some who have 2 or 3 good players that can't reach the higher levels because the haven't got a squad that is fully strong. In the institues you are suppose to play your stongest player at number 1 and so on to number 4. BCI 'E'lites have a number 4 player that could easily play at number 1 and win, having said that i've beaten him this season. so how good is the number 1 player? Yes most of us not so good players would give him a game, but our chances of winning are minimal.  :thumbup:

[Mike Langdon]

All cool mate.   :thumbup:

[Daniel]

In fact looking at one of the comments below., it looks as though even Sherwood cannot re-enter the top level with the new format without difficulty!  I think it's unnacceptable if even the likes of Oakleigh and Wollaton will not even have the option of 2 frames per man.  Under what was previously proposed there was the possibility of them playing 2 3/4man teams with one in the top division.

Bob, the use of Elitist might have been an unfortunate choice of words because of the name of one of the teams (sorry BCI).  I'd better qualify what I said I think.  You're right in what you say.  My point though was not so much about playing your best players, as that's what you have to do to try to win.  My point was that many clubs and players will be excluded.  If you play for a club with one table, no matter how good you get/are you will be excluded from playing the best teams and your development halted (e.g. Wollaton, Oakleigh).  You could form a new team (as some players had planned to) but need to have at least 8 players (if you need reserves) and 2 tables available regulary realistically so it's really tough to do that too.  Even for say Arnold CD who have 3 tables this is just a short term compromise.  They only have 3 tables so if they had the numbers to field a B team again that team would still be excluded in the long term from the top division as you would need 4 tables.  It simply is not fair in my view...

The 3/4 man team format meant so much more flexibility and allowed EVERY team to at least have the option of playing the same format as the top players.  It was easier to form a new team too if your own club decided not to play the new format for all of their players/teams. In terms of attracting new blood this is also a backwards step.  It's too hard to form a new teams so closes off the league to new  competitors.  My guess is that clubs who have 4 or more tables like BCI and Pegasus and Stadium (if they had the numbers of players) will only consider letting new or developing players play the old format.  This means that the better/established players will always get more team match play and are likely to stay stronger.

I've gone on enough but I HOPE that some readers will understand me.  I've rattled on because it really isn't easy to get across why I'm so unhappy.  I think it won't be obvious to all teams how excluded they are initially so hopefully this will get their notice.  I can also completely understand why Steve probably wants closure on this and I'm probably becoming the irritating but hopefully forward looking voice of reason.

[Kwok Yip]

Thanx for the sudden overnight Superstar status guys  :laugh: :laugh:

This has clearly been an on going heated debate on the forum for a while, with plenty of great pros and cons put forward, so without beating around the bush again!! In a nut shell the votes "that count" finished almost equal with a very close split for the change! So putting this into perspective the split for the two formats will result in weakening the Nhsl league and make it far less competitive!


Had it been a landslide result in favour of the new format who am i or anyone else to say any different! Never say never, it's a great idea that we should not ignore and look further to develop in the very near future!! I think if the Nhsl league had been a disaster for all these years everyone including myself would off voted for the new change immediately!!!


Daniel - The truth is, you'll Never Ever please everyone, had the results been reversed or there was no choice, with the Nhsl taking charge and making a uniformed decision for everyone we would just give it a trial for one season and see after that!!! I hear what your saying mate,  league snooker has always been the same for years! Back in my school days, many moons ago i started playing in the institutes league in the lower division to gain experience and there was always better teams and players far ahead of you dominating the league. Personally this has always inspired me to improve, i always loved playing the top teams and players! I believe "What don't kill you will make you stronger!" Believe and achieve, there is no short cut to success, plenty of practice and hard grafting " no substitute for experience!"


You get alot of good what i call Yo Yo teams in the leagues, good teams with great players but for some strange reason or other not get the results and end up going up and down the league now thats frustrating! But credit to the teams battling on and getting back up there, season after season! There was No guarantee my team winning the league this season, plenty of tough competieion out there, plenty of hard grafting and i think we just gelled well as a team! It's great that we can all put our thoughts across on the forum anyway respect to you for putting you thoughts across so changes can be brought to the table!  I think teams like Sherwood or "The Club" will surprise you with the new takeover, and looking forward to the new Nottingham Uni team next season!     


Regards Cpt Kwok :smokey:   

[Daniel]

This being my first input on this subject i would like to speak on behalf of Sherwood social now known as (the club) now speaking with the lads they seem to want to play in the nshl league next season. Regarding 6/12 man team totally think this is a bad idea think we may be able to put one team in BUT talking with them i know we could put in at least 2 teams to the proposed 3/4 team so hopefully the 3/4 team is not dead and buried yet so i will there at the next meeting (lee crombie)

Kwok, my point is that many teams can't even be a yo-yo team now.  Above is a problem for Sherwood.  Others can't have 2 tables or get 8 players so are excluded.  One minute we had a set of new teams/players able to enter but now less than ever can ever play in the top division. If there was only 3 tables at BCI then BCI braves would excluded as you need 2 tables for each team then.  Would you think that was fair mate?  You were inclined to keep the league as it was if I remember.  At least that way every team could hope/dream of playing the best (in the top division) or even do what your team have.

Of course the league has not been a disaster though.  But looking to the future is vital.  Playing 2 frames however is something I'm guessing those of you who do get the chance to will be delighted about.  the rest will have to look on with envy...

[Kwok Yip]

Daniel just a quick reply matey to your post!

Your correct, I was against the format change, for two reasons...

1) Breaking down team from 6/8players to 3/4players reasons already covered!

2) The issue of two frames reasons also covered!


My reason I said in one of my earlier post "best of both worlds" is because alot of people was for the format change because of the two frames each! I thought it was a great compromise for the same number of players for the two or one frame each!!!
I see what your saying regards the table issues matey! I don't thinks nothings official yet mate that's why I agree with you, we should all speak now or forever hold your peace at this stage and then leave it to the great organisers Steve, Mike and co to continue to do what they do best and decide the future or best direction for the Nhsl league as it's getting all a bit too political! Too many cooks spoil the broth an all that...!   

 

[Mike Langdon]

I think the 2 tables requirement for a team perhaps doesn't equate to needing 4 tables for two teams.  You would in fact only need 3 tables for 2 teams.

8pm Table 1 - A team match 1
8pm Table 2 - A Team match 2
8pm Table 3  -B Team match 1
9pm Table 1 - A team match 3
9pm Table 2 - B team match 2
9pm Table 3 - B team match 3

This works out to exactly the same time as would be used if each team had 2 tables each.  In fact if both teams used 2 tables each then 2 of the tables would not be in use use come the 3rd and final matches in a leg.

I do however see your point about it being unfair to exclude teams with only 1 table from playing the 12 frame format. Perhaps those teams with only one table (Wollaton & Oakleigh) could start their home legs at half seven with the back up of the 10/10 rule to ensure a finish.  I can hear the arguments now how it will be too confusing having some venues start at half seven whilst all others are 8pm....nonsence!!! it's no different to knowing and remembering you need to leave the club earlier to travel to Cotgrave than you do to get to Arnold Civil Defence.  It certainly won't come into play next season anyway as neither Wollaton or Oakleigh will be in the top flight. Unless of course we end up with only 1 big division.

Mike

[Alan Cunningham]

I give up !!!!. No substitutes ??. Arnold will be reduced to ONE team next year. Wish I hadnt even suggested the "6 frame, 4 man squad" format to move forward with snooker and the Nazareth House Snooker League.