KO Cup & Plate Draws (to be played 08/02/11)

[Robert Wright]

Yes i see what you mean Jamie. Therefore something needs doing with the handicaps. That's not for me comment on.

[Jamie Moore]

You can only control the game your playing in.... If you win on aggregate point after giving huge starts you shouldnt be punished....if you want lower division sides to win do it fairly and give them bigger starts and make the top teams earn their win....

[Nick Kirkman]

I have followed the views on this point and thought about it all day because in one respect Jamie has a good point, however the way it works is also right.  I don't think the problem is the handicap system at all because I don't..   in view of the results we have had so far this season that there isn't  much between all 18 teams given there handicaps.  Most of the results have been very close. In some reports there has been comments on how good the hcp has worked out.

One way to make it fairer all round and mainly for the division one sides not being too heavily penalised  is not for them to play the first two legs. As Jamie said after they played the first two legs it's out of there hands. Whether a Div 1 side plays the first or the second leg they should beable to play the final leg as they are giving handicap starts to everyone else will enable them to aim for a target to help them get through. If they don't make it through,  then at least they have had a fair crack at it. The way it is now  div 1 teams give a fair hcp start and like Jamie has said after the first two legs its out of there hands.  This way theres no excuses even though the results could be exactly the same as it is now.

Pegasus A, Arnold A,Pegasus B and NUSPC Rileys all made it through there groups so there isn't much wrong with hcp system.

Just a personal view point with a possible fix.

[maqsood]

Jamie, Steve and Mike

Sorry Jamie, i did initially overlook the point you was making. On analysis, i do see what you mean because Team A in effect suffers a "double" handicap due to factors totally beyond their control - which as you say is definitely unfair.

On looking at the system, it would be an administrative nightmare for Steve and Mike to review all the handicaps. From my past experience, the team handicaps work ok and i don't think they should be changed. However, They only work in isolation , by this i mean  Team X against Team Y.

For comparative purposes, in the scenario you posed where 3 teams are playing each other, the system does not work.

In such circumstances, i think, on deciding who goes through, you should keep to the handicaps for each team when playing each other, but when deciding who qualifies you should only take into account the "point difference".

So in the scenario you posed Jamie.

Team A  : points scored = 900, points against = 870   : Point difference   =  30
Team B  : points scored = 901, points against = 930   : Point difference   = -29
Team C  : points scored = 820, points against = 821   : Points difference = -1

Hence, 1st = Team A, 2nd = Team C and 3rd = Team C

Cheers

Bash

[maqsood]

sorry, typing error in last message

3rd place = Team B

Bash

[Alan Cunningham]

I voiced my disapproval of the '3 leg - round robin' format for the K.O. cup at the last meeting but it was turned down.
Results in the competition confirm what I had said and what other people have stated in this thread.

Group C was a typical example - we, Arnold B, got thrashed by BCI SE by 270 pts - Rileys and BCI SE played a very tight match  only 23 pts difference - Rileys beat Arnold B by 123 pts. Needless to say Arnold finished bottom of their group and Rileys finished top.  
BCI SE (with the help of results in other groups ) do not qualify are relegated to the K.O. plate.

I know people are going to say with the handicapping system you stand a chance of winning but I would think that BCI SE are odds-on to win the Plate.

Yes, keep the handicap system but scrap the 'round robin'. Back to the old method - every team plays in the K.O. cup, if you lose in the first round you go into the K.O. Plate. If you lose in subsequent rounds of either competition, bad luck, better luck next season.

People could argue that there wouldnt be enough matches to fill the season - at present there are 3 divisions of 6 playing each other 3 times making 15 league matches. To fulfil the fixtures would just need to play each other 4 times round, 20 matches in all.

[Mike Langdon]

Who are the current holders of the KO Cup?

[Jamie Moore]

That sounds good to me!!

[Jamie Moore]

I complained about it last year too Mike..... It becomes fair when it is one on one if your lucky to get out of your group....

[Jamie Moore]

just another example...assume handicap system is perfect...

jamie (-14) + 81 = 67   jim   (+28) + 39 = 67
jason (-14) + 81 = 67   toby (+28) + 39 = 67
Barry (-14) + 81 = 67   Sean (+28) + 39 = 67
Keith (-7)   + 81 = 74   tom   (+35) + 39 = 74
              total   = 275                         =275

jim   (+28) + 60 = 88    ally   (+28) + 60 = 88   
toby (+28) + 60 = 88    paul (+28) + 60 = 88   
Sean (+28) + 60 = 88   tony (+28) + 60 = 88     
tom   (+35) + 60 = 88   scot (+28) + 60 = 88   
              total   = 352                        =352


As you can see teams who are giving starts cannot score as much as positive handicapped teams...

the handicaps are important to make games competitive but the aggregate scores in games you cannot control because your not involved is unfair.

I'm not commenting any further.

[Mike Langdon]

BCI were simply unlucky with the draw this year. Getting Rileys in your group certainly made it a group of death. Personally I've never been a big fan of points win matches as for me snooker will always be about winning frames no matter how low the score.  On the other hand I like the fact we have three different scoring formats as it adds variety.

The group format does add extra games to a season which is good for us captains in getting in subs to pay the £100 per team entrance fee and also allows plenty of chance for different teams to play each other.

Should changes be made to the KO cup then any changes that are made should be to add excitement and raise the profile of the competition as it should be our number one Cup competition. When asked my proposal will be for the KO Cup and Plate to revert to straight knockout using the 7 frame hcp system that is currently used in the (popular??) divisional cup format ie home team gets to play the only pairs frame ensuring a result. There have been mutterings of disapproval with this format due to some not being able to play someone due to the loss of a pairs frame.

The divisional cups could then take on the group and pts total format. By using this format in divisional cups the players handicaps are a lot closer and therefore should not cause such a fuss. We could still use groups in this to fill out the season.

[Steve Butler]

Tonight's fixtures:

KO CUP
Arnold A v Mapperley CC
Rileys v BCI B
Pegasus B v NUSPC Rileys
Pegasus A v Gotham RBL

KO PLATE
Pegasus C v Arnold B

Scoresheets and a handicap list were dropped off at clubs on Sunday night in an A4 envelope marked for the attention of the team captain or "snooker team".

Good luck everyone!

:thumbup:

[Alan Cunningham]

As Mike has suggested why cant the K.O. cup & the Plate be run on the same 7 frame format as the Divisional Cups where players play for frames using their individual handicaps. The only change I would suggest to this is the dropping of the pairs frame, so the 'home' team would have to supply 4 players - not just three with their No.1 & No.2 players in the pairs. In the current system a strong home team winning 2 x singles and 1 x pairs only needs to pick up ONE out of FOUR from the other frames to win the tie.

I know the 'pairs' frame was brought in to help teams that could not provide 8 players per match, so they only had to provide 6 players, but, this you've got to admit, has become abused (by teams manipulating the system). Now teams appear to be much healthier in numbers why dont we adopt this 7 frame format for the League matches.

While on the subject of handicapping, it was suggested by Barry STARK at a meeting several years ago, why dont we re-consider using the handicapping system in all League matches.

[Ryan Cooper]

As for BIC Super Elites being odds on favourites for the plate, Yes they are but Oakleigh will be doing everything possible to ensure they hold on it for another year    lol

[Mike Langdon]

Alan. Sorry did not respond earlier re 7 frame format. It's an interesting point in by dropping the pairs frame you would allow an extra player a frame of snooker which would please some sides. However (there's always a however  :laugh:) personally I'm finding it difficult to raise 6 players each week let alone 7. I also think that pairs frames are never a given as no player can really get into any rhythm and I've on many occasions witnessed frames where the so called top pairing are made to look very ordinary. Add to this the handicap and the pairs is perhaps the most likely cause of an upset....take Croft and Robinsons excellent shock win over Brooks & Taylor.

Cheers

Mike